| Posted: 23 Jun 2009 16:59 |
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So, I got to thinking about this recently.
There's a bit of talk here and there about how that Jerk Joe Q has made all the Marvel Universe a big left wing propaganda tool. Usually Civil War is held up as an example of this left wing thinking and see Dark Reign as a continuation of it.
I think this is in error because when I look at Civil War, Secret Invasion, and Dark Reign if I look for a political undertone (I don't really think there is one, but let's play along) I see a very republican or at least right wing perspective playing out.
First you have the Civil War. A group of very knowledgable people, after a great Tragedy decide that is necessary to protect the populace in general to minorly infringe on the civil rights of their fellow super beings. The Super Beings then proceed to scream and fight and tear down the entire country in order to avoid having a minor interference in their daily super heroing. I really felt they made Cap seem hopelessly nieve by siding with the Anti-Registration group, and routinely showed how rational what the government was proposing was, and how dangerous the opposition forces were.
Sure some lines were crossed (Thor Clone) but in the end these were necessary costs to reign in what were dangerous and violent people. When Cap found himself allied with the punisher it all came home to him, and he had to give up. That I saw as the redemption of the pro-registration forces. He may not have liked what they did, but he realized then what the alternative was.
And speaking of the alternative, we next find ourselves in the Secret Invasion. If we operate form the premise that the Civil War distracted the powers that be in the marvel universe from the Secret Invasion, we can see more right wing opinion in the idea that, because the anti-registration forces fought the efforts to bring the super hero community undercontrol we were infact invaded (or attacked) by our enemies. If Cap and his crew had signed on the argument goes, and not fought reed and tony, they would have realized Pym was the traitor in their midst and circumvented the invasion. But because people had to trip up the efforts of Reed and Tony, they weren't able to protect us.
Which leads us up to Dark Reign. In which a lot of people see as a blatent political attack on the right, and justification for the civil war, but in context I could see it more as the result of the civil war. Essentially, the oppostion forces push against the morally centered heroes who are trying to prevent a far greater tragedy, which causes chaos and results in the rise to power of a person with no moral underpinning for whom the expansion of power is it's own reward.
In that, you could see Dark Reign as far more politically tied to the left then the right. Look at it like this, a virtual unknown rises to power on the seeming failures of his predecessors, and rather than undo the seeming failures of the previous administration actually strengthens the policies, and expands his reach of power much farther than any previous occupant of the position ever did.
If you replace H.A.M.M.E.R.'s movement from global terrorism to local policing with the unprecidented expansions of powers for the EPA and FDA to control legal industries and even regulate them out of existence, and the whole scenerio is now a big ball of right wing fear mongering and propaganda.
I personally don't think Joe Q and the gang put that much thought into any of this. I think they wanted an ultimate super hero slam fest, and did that, then a massive alien invasion (not dissimilar from atlantis attacks a few years ago) and did that, then they decided to crib the Wanted and President Luthor concepts and do that in the Marvel Universe. I don't think there are the political undertones that others see, but if I were to look for them I guess to me the argument is much stronger from the other side.
Any thoughts?
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| Posted: 23 Jun 2009 18:50 |
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Wonder why they didn't use DC's Crisis of the Infinite worlds to validate their political view-points? Destruction of the old worlds, a moral/ethical person (People in Iraq) sacrificed his life to get rid of an unlikeable leader?
About these Marvel Events, probably the times, but back in the 60s and 70s, they had these Invasion stories, Namor sent sea monsters and armies on land, the Hulk went on rampages, Galactus tried to eat Earth at least 3 times (Could be more), Skull/Kree war, Dire-Wraith attack, ...and usually, there's very little mention of damages or loss of lives. Today books and stories, there are repercussions, results,changes, tragedies, sacrifices, etc. Just an observation, but you can make any political views out of that. I see it as a changing entertainment landscape.
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| Posted: 23 Jun 2009 20:15 |
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I actually think Final Crisis was just too convoluted for anyone to figure out let alone assign political philosophies to.
I do like the fact that violence has consequences now. I particularly liked after WWH how the point was made that although the Hulk didn't kill anyone he did destroy people's lives, causing them to lose their homes, their jobs, the money they had tucked away.
They actually dealt with that in a one shot Hulk Story years ago, after the Hulk had been pardoned and had Bruce Banner's brain. That old story.
A guy comes to kill Bruce because when the hulk smashed his town the PTSD and other related factors ruined his life (turned to drinking, lost his wife, etc.).
The Hulk makes up for it by literally rebuilding the town.
It was played for Schmaltz, and Bruce trying to use this massive power of the Hulk for good, but if you think about it, it was such a hollow gesture.
The man's life is destroyed, and sure you rebuilt his house, but not his life. His wife doesnt' come back, he still has PTSD.
And that's the thing with the Hulk. Damage Control comes back rebuilds Manhattan. But what about the lives of everyone in Manhattan. Those don't get rebuilt so easy.
Heck in the real world the buildings don't even get rebuilt that easy. We're still looking at a giant hole in Lower Manhattan, and a lot of people are no where near back to who they were after that.
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| Posted: 06 Jul 2009 10:46 |
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Why would you go back?
What were you then?
Complacent, naive, distracted?
A war has been going on for 1400 years and the West has forgotten that it fought, forgotten even what it fought for.
A nation that forgets how to fight will simply become a page in the history books, if there are any books that remember them.
"Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves." Winston Churchill The Gathering Storm
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| Posted: 06 Jul 2009 20:49 |
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Marvel does have a severe left wing slant. Usually portraying Fox News as a "we decide for you" news channel when in reality all MSNBC and CNN (besides being hypocrits) do is kiss the new president's ass
__________________"--When the mob and the Press and the whole WORLD tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth and tell the whole world 'No you move'."
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| Posted: 06 Jul 2009 21:01 |
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I didn't even mention on how they portray Norman Osborne as the Evil Right Wing leader, and coming up with an arc conveniently called the "Iron" Patriot Act which further promotes the liberal agenda. Seems they love to make Entreprenuers and other business men like Tony Stark severe badguys for siding with the government.
I am not saying I am some super conservative, but I see how the liberal media dominates television, newspapers, and magazines.
How many Barack Obama tribute comics have you seen at your local comic store? Have you ever seen George W Bush in a favorable light just as Obama has? Hell no, you would never see Spider-man swinging around Bush. It's the left wing agenda that is brainwashing our youth by mixing superheroes with political figures.
I think I liked comics better when they would use generic presidents, since the only presidents that are shown are Democrats like FDR, Carter, Clinton, and Obama.
__________________"--When the mob and the Press and the whole WORLD tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth and tell the whole world 'No you move'."
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| Posted: 06 Jul 2009 22:12 |
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Well, I saw the Dark Reign theme as another way the bad guys are pissing off the heroes, before they used robots, crooks, doomsday machines, bombs, etc. Doc Oct even went as far as trying to marry Aunt May, wow, that really pissed off Spidey.
During the civil war run, there was a Captain America vs Iron Man special, where the two heroes meet and discuss their differences. Cap mentioned that government change, and if all heroes are under the government, ...so now, Iron man never thought someone like Osborn will be leading all the registered heroes, and Cap's stand on personal freedom are in danger. Was Cap right? Now that there's no Shield, all heroes are under Hammer and the Thunderbolts?
I'm taking an pragamatic look at this, than pointing fingers or stating this is an example of left or right wing thinking. I was taught that when you point a finger at someone, 3 fingers point back at you. So, if Joe Q or the Right wing or the Conservatives want to accuse, point or complain, take a look at their own house and see what their issues or problems are and find ways to fix them.
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2009 17:22 |
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Quote:
I think I liked comics better when they would use generic presidents, since the only presidents that are shown are Democrats like FDR, Carter, Clinton, and Obama.
I agree with a lot of your points Shieldbearer there is an obvious bias these days in comics, but I do remember back in the 80's Reagan showed up a lot even having a long conversation with Superman. Of course those were the days when America was leaning right after having a terrible economy under Jimmy Carter.
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2009 17:25 |
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Presidents in Comics
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2009 17:26 |
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Reagan and Cap. Not as good a likeness.
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2009 17:27 |
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Reagan impersonating Cap?
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2009 17:47 |
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ACtually, in the new marvel spotlight they point out that Nixon, Ford, Carter, Regan, George W Bush (being saved by Thor) and Obama were all featured in Marvel Comics. George H.W. Bush, and Clinton somehow weren't listed (or maybe I'm just forgetting their apperances) though Clinton is shown as the signatory on Cap's Avengers Card (which was done to reset the timeline slightly, somthing I hate).
And don't think it's all positive for Dems, remember Obama, was duped by Osborn in the Thunderbolts, recently, and really, all of Dark Reign is happening on his watch.
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2009 18:00 |
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"And don't think it's all positive for Dems, remember Obama, was duped by Osborn in the Thunderbolts, recently, and really, all of Dark Reign is happening on his watch. "
Being duped however does not infer any negativity towards the character of Barack Obama, but rather how "evil and manipulating" Right Winger Norman Osborne who is the stereotype for comic book republicans.
Thank you for pointing out appearances of Ronald Reagan in Captain America. For this I was ignorant.
...but I leave this article with you all about Erik Larsen who spent time on Marvel, DC, and Image comics.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=21910
Take special notice of the bias of endorsing President Obama, and punching out of President Bush.
__________________"--When the mob and the Press and the whole WORLD tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth and tell the whole world 'No you move'."
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2009 18:09 |
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Might I add, my experience with the comics during and before the 80s is limited, as well as my collection almost exclusive to Marvel Comics (which might I add is very extensive). Comics (to my knowledge) back then were less provacative concerning Commander in Chief and few openly challenged policies.
Thank you all for providing a greater insight.
__________________"--When the mob and the Press and the whole WORLD tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth and tell the whole world 'No you move'."
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2009 20:03 |
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Well back during Watergate, Cap fought against a character who lead the Sons of the Serpent who was heavily implied to be Richard Nixon, it was after these events that Steve took up the Identity of Nomad.
So it's really not that new. Comics by their nature are a somewhat subversive medium, dealing with people imposing justice in a system seen as unjust, and I would assume that such a genre likely pulls more from the left than the right as far as creative types go.
Likewise the Superhero is first imagined during the height of the depression, and has a bit of new deal populism as a central theme of it's creation.
Most villians are rich guys, business men, barrons and the like. Even Cap was constantly dealing with company owners who were sabotaging their own companies to forward the Nazi Agenda.
The Genre is probably going to lean left more than it leans right because of the people drawn to the genre, though on occasion the opposite is true.
One thing that always comes up with both Mutant Registration as well as Super Human Registration is to tie it to gun control. You have to register your gun, you have to register your super power. That sounds like a left leaning policy to me, but people always see it as a symbol of the right.
I think more often than not people just see what they want to see.
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| Posted: 08 Jul 2009 02:59 |
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That 70s Secret Empire sort of/implied/hinted that the head of a secret organization to overrun the current government was Ni*on,
In the Gruenwald books, Viper/Madam Hydra turned the 80s President into a snake.
In Waid's book, Clinton held Cap's shield and was also a pallbearer for Cap's coffin, and he also ex-patriotized or exiled Cap from America.
Hmmm, maybe there is some political overtures in Marvel books, ...or I'm just making you guys go looking for these back issues and promoting Cap.
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| Posted: 08 Jul 2009 07:32 |
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I was reading a history of comic books a while back and a fact of history is that the founders of many of the comic books we love were Jewish.
As a block Jewish people in America overwhelmingly vote Democrat so it wouldn't be too surprising if their intellectual progeny tended to lean that way.
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| Posted: 08 Jul 2009 17:57 |
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Well, as far as Regan being turned into a Snake Goes, everyone in Washington D.C.(including democrats one assumes) was turned into a Snake (insert joke here), the plan to give Regan an extra dose of the Snake juice was to put Cap in a position where he had to fight someone whom he could not harm, because he was the president, but who would kill Cap, because he was driven insane by snake juice.
Naturally Cap, does save the day, and returns Regan to proper giperific mode, and he gives a speech at the end honoring Cap.
The only issue at the end was a shot of Regan his canine tooth glinting perhaps implying a little pit of snake juice was still in his system.
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| Posted: 10 Jul 2009 23:25 |
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How many left wing hate groups appear in the Marvel comics? Or even activities like this . It does seem that "right" wing groups appear a lot, but no left wing groups. Historically though (in the real world) it seems quite the reverse.
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| Posted: 13 Jul 2009 21:05 |
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Doesn't seem like there are many left wing radicals depicted in that many movies, tv, comics at all. Just a few here and there.
I never understand why they call right wing radical groups right wing. Like right wing groups support Jews and Israel for instance more than a lot of liberal groups, but anti-Jewish groups get the radical right wing tag. Seems like an illogical comparison.
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| Posted: 17 Jul 2009 12:11 |
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Apparently Joseph Stalin came up with the idea of labelling anyone who disagreed with him a "fascist". There's a book called "Liberal Fascism" which I haven't read; apparently it goes into depth examining things like that.
Go and look at the beliefs of groups like the American eugenicists from the early twentieth century. Obama's new science czar was professing exactly the same beliefs in the 1970s with no sign he has changed his views.
The political spectrum is not a continuum, it's a circle. Hard right and hard left arrive at exactly the same place. The state becomes the god who will suffer no rivals.
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| Posted: 09 Feb 2010 10:47 |
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Well I don't think Security over freedom is the 'right wing' or even 'Republican' stance to take.
To suggest that is to suggest that the classical liberals, founding fathers of the US, and even the traditional US conservatives (of the Goldwater mold), were somehow left wing. Rubbish!
Since left v right stopped being defined by either support or opposition to monarchy, support for small government and individual freedom has commonly been held to be the right wing position. This is very much true in the US. Yes you do not abandon security but the right understands the importance of individual freedom for security. IT IS ESSENTIAL!
George W Bush has openly been hostile to this tradition for the entirety of his involvement in the Republican Party.
The Bush/neocon position is not 'right wing' and it does not speak for US right wing conservatism. The original Democratic-Republican Party opposed the Alien and Sedition acts. It is only recently that the Republican Party has not resembled similar philosophical leanings.
Neoconservtism was borne out of socialism. The neoconservatives were originally socialists and who developed an alternative method for achieving their collectivist ends. This is simply the history of that particular philosophy.
It has only risen in prominence towards the end of Reagans Presidency and even then Reagan was not a neoconservative.
Let us not forget, the Registration Act was a knee jerk reactionary move blaming an entire group for the actions of a few. That is the ANTITHESIS OF conservatism let alone classical liberalism.
The REgistration demanded Govt control. HELLO? Small Govt?
The Registration instituted a potential draft. HELLO? It was the right in the US that ended the draft.
If you feel that the anti-registration side does not accord with Republican Party principles, well that says more about the Republican Party than it does about 'right wingedness'. Thankfully, since 08, the true conservative/libertarian fusion that has been the heart of the right wing in the US is actively bringing these principles back to prominence.
Captain America stood up for individual freedom against Government tyranny. A tyranny of the majority is still tyranny and no true conservative, classical liberal, or libertarian accepts majority will over individual freedom.
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| Posted: 09 Feb 2010 10:53 |
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As far as Marvel leaning left though, I do not offer a rebuttal. I merely wanted to rebut the notion that 'pro-registration' equaled right while 'anti-registration' equaled left.
Hell, Mark Millar wrote it and he thought the 'pro-registration' side were paragons of virtue.
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| Posted: 09 Feb 2010 18:06 |
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Marvel Comics has an extreme left wing bias. Don't believe me? Check out this link to Siege:Embedded 1.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=4158&disp=table
Look how they try as hard as they can to slander Glen Beck.
__________________"--When the mob and the Press and the whole WORLD tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth and tell the whole world 'No you move'."
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| Posted: 09 Feb 2010 18:58 Last Edited By: Matches |
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Well...it's not hard to make fun of Glenn Beck, there is infact a large group of people who are convinced the man is the world's greatest performance artist who has taken Colbert's lunch to a merry prankster's extreme.
That being said, the character you are refering to is first and formost a "showbusiness type" not an ideologue. Again this likely stems from feeling by a number of people that Mr. Beck can't possibly be as insane as he presents himself as. Forgoodness sake half his schtick is taken directly from the film Network which is hillariously enough by his own admission.
Glenn Beck is either a merry prankster making a mint off of his destruction of the credibility of the right (though one does pause with trepedation remembering Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut)or a man actually on the verge of a nervous breakdown.
Anyway, I don't think that mockery of Fox News makes you left leaning (except in a world view where disagreement is opposition) given how much material it produces for mockery.
As I said, there are probably some choices of villains that do reflect a slight cultural bias towards the left, however I don't think this is intentional, or directed, or even consistent (note that Billionaire Weapons Manufacturer Tony Stark is one of the Big Three Pillars of Marvel Heroism right next to the embodyment of jingoistic militarism, and the aryan ideal of a norse god).
Corporations are some times evil, except when they are good. The Government is some times evil, except when it is good. These are the same ideas that are wraped up in the superhero dynamic. Superheros are good, except when they are not.
It's not a bias, it's just the only way you can tell a story. Yes there are right wing terrorist groups, mostly because that's where you find terrorists now a days (it's hard to argue that the Taliban is a left wing group afterall). We've seen up close an personal right wing terrorists reap real world havoc in the U.S. (remember Tim McVeigh? How about the Klan?) and very few left wing groups. Now back in the 60's there were some radical left wing terrorists, and who can forget Cap's old one world government adversary the Flag Smasher from the 80's.
But at the same time, when you've got people burning books and blowing up building and killing people in the real world, it's kind of hard not model villains after them and their ideals.
It's not that there is an embrace of the counter point perspective, but it is a recognition that "hey here's a good villain, ripped from the headlines".
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| Posted: 10 Feb 2010 00:13 |
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I was not aware the Taliban supported the free market...
What does left and right wing even mean? This is why you need at least a two dimensional axis.
Even on that spectrum though, a lack of economic or personal freedom won't be on the right.
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| Posted: 10 Feb 2010 21:56 |
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I know, he is very confused.
__________________"--When the mob and the Press and the whole WORLD tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth and tell the whole world 'No you move'."
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| Posted: 11 Feb 2010 02:06 |
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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/02/09/tea-party-reference-ca ...
Check this out for the argument...
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| Posted: 11 Feb 2010 04:32 |
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I took a long good read of the article and the article that follows with Joe Quesada. Joe is doing some serious damage control. I am not convinced of his sincerity about the Tea Party group, but I agree that there should be a shroud of ambiguity in the medium presented to not offend consumers. I much preferred when generic presidents and other officials are used like Senator Kelly in the X-Men.
I have yet to read Captain America #602, but from the first link it states this:
"They see scores of protesters carrying signs that say 'Stop the Socialists!' and 'Tea Bag The Libs Before They Tea Bag YOU!'
Captain America says the protest appears to be an 'anti-tax thing,' and The Falcon jokes that he likely would not be welcomed into the crowd of 'angry white folks.'"
Just based off this I can understand the emotions the Falcon has, being someone from a culture of vast diversity and coming into one of limited exposure. I also understand Sam isn't that serious about the situation. The pickets are exclusively portrayed as Tea Party members based off their signs alone and I have yet to spot anyone remotely looking other than White, which even if it was a generic group, it surely isn't filled with generic Americans. Racist? I am unsure, but I am sure if it was Cap saying he would not be welcomed into the crowd of "angry [insert ethnic group here] folks" there would be a racial backfire from someone for sure. Next would be on the news about how racist Captain America is and how his book should be banned.
This however is not to say African Americans and other ethnic groups do not live in states like Idaho, because they do. Just watch Neopolean Dynomite, lol "Vote for Pedro".
This should be moved to its own thread. Labeled Tea Party. I am sure it would be a good conversation on its own.
__________________"--When the mob and the Press and the whole WORLD tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth and tell the whole world 'No you move'."
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| Posted: 11 Feb 2010 06:23 |
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I find that to be a disappointing development. The 'tea party' movement is not a movement where race has a basis in their goals. They do not hate Obama because he is black, they hate Obama because he represents the US's continual move toward fascism (and I don't mean that as hyperbole).
The problem is people tend to be very 'team sports' about politics. They latch onto a team 'Repubs or Dems' and barrack (I think the American vernacular is root) for that team despite what they are doing. As such, when Bush was president, the movement was smaller.
Frankly, libertarians/traditional conservatives have been in the minority for so long we'd be happy to add anyone, let alone a bloody super hero.
I'm disappointed to hear of Ed's tweets on the matter of the movement as well. I'm not a fan of Sarah Palin (she doesn't live up to my rigid intellectual and philosophical standards), however his tweet about 'we had a revolution already, it was an election' is something Captain America would not say. I hope Ed doesn't fall into the trap of using a character as an author mouthpiece.
On the related topic of using real life politicians, I'm uncomfortable with that also. There's no need to alienate one part of a fanbase by doing so. Use fake Presidents for a fake world.
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