| Posted: 06 Dec 2008 06:02 |
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After watching so many superhero movies and reading critisms and reviews, I like to point out problems with superhero movies and I like to hear your views.
Arrogance: With great powers and abilities, heroes come off better-than-us and over righteous. Spiderman 3, Catwoman, Electra, Batman 2,3,4, Superman 3,4. They're usually offset with familar themes, like Superman raising on a farm with loving parents, or with tragedy or hardship, like Peter Parker's money problems in #2. Sure enough Captain America will sound like that if we don't know his humble beginnings.
Stagey or Over-the-top performances: Can be when actors don't know who or what they're performing against, like most Star Trek tv shows and movies, they read and act their lines like they're on stage and the alien landscape are added in later. Plus actors don't have superheroes in reality to research. For Cap, the actor has to see that person as someone who wants to make a difference and do something with his life.
Superman the movie: I found that critics tend to use this movie to guage or rate all superhero movies. If all SH movies are versions of Supe, it'll be boring and pointless to make, why boxing movies like Cinderella man failed because they're just remakes of Raging Bull or Rocky. Spiderman 2, Parker was broke, Dark Knight was Joker messing with the heroes, Daredevil was the cynicism and pointlessness of vigilante fighting. Cap should be a superhero in a war movie. A human superman in Saving private Ryan. That's what I see that'll make Cap likeable and worth watching to the movie goers who don't know or not a fan of Captain America.
Believeability: Very hard to do when there isn't a Batmobile on the road or people flying or swinging through the air. If the actor doesn't believe in his lines or performances, it'll show and lose all credibility. I liken the speaches of John F. Kennedy as basis for Cap's lines and speaches. Plus any of you believe or would follow California-type, sunny blonde people? That's why I won't vote for Mathew Mac. Someone darker blonde, city raised and confident in person and character not willing-to-ride-huge-waves type confidence.
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| Posted: 06 Dec 2008 16:03 |
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I think Cap has to be about finding the American spirit and putting it in human form. The exact same American spirit that existed in World War II and exists today somewhere in between all the cynicism and political correctness.
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| Posted: 06 Dec 2008 21:14 |
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I disagree with what you said about arrogance. Heroes are supposed to be better than us. That's why they're called heroes.
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| Posted: 06 Dec 2008 21:32 |
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Exaclty.
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| Posted: 07 Dec 2008 22:38 |
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I don't know if Heros are better than us, I think they often are us. If you think about it, most of us, don't go out and abuse what power we have, most of us try our best to do the right thing. Now none of us probably have superpowers, but we do have what ever we do have. If you're a big guy there is a good chance you don't go around picking fights with little guys, if you're a rich guy you probably don't go around screwing other people out of their money. Sure some people do, but most people don't. It's probably fair to say that if tomorrow any of us won the lottery we'd do with our new wealth and power something to help our fellows, and not dedicate our lives to screwing over every petty slight we ever received (like Doctor Doom).
People do good every day, they could do bad, they could do anything, but they don't they do good. It's silly to think that things would be differnt in the Super Hero Universe.
As to the more specific point of how do you keep Cap from sounding Corny? The answer is easy enough. Don't make him say anything corny.
You have a pretty easy origin story for Cap. He's a young guy horrified by the Nazi's (who wouldn't be) who joins the army to fight them (as many did) He gets powers because the army gives him powers, he wears a suit because the army gives him a suit, He fights the bad guys because the army tells him who the bad guys are (also they are shooting at him which makes it easy to figure out who the bad guys are). You can explore some pretty complex issues there too, which cap dealing with the ideals of America (as he'd understand them growing up in Multi-Ethnic New York city) compared with the realities of America (a segregated service, and perhaps even refernces to Isiah Bradley). These things can also be well exploited if there is a psychological scene between hitler and Cap, you know just before he punches the rat in the jaw. Actually, if Hitler goes into a little speech about how similar the US and Germany are, and what a fine Aryan specimen Cap is, it puts that whole punch in the jaw in a differnt more complex light.
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| Posted: 12 Dec 2008 22:35 |
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Super heroes better than us? Marvel comics returned heroes to the real people, something that after 40 years, Superman and Batman took superheroes to an elitist-status. The arrogance I'm talking about is the tone of the movie and the presence of the star or movie characters. Such as Britney's movie Crossroads, about 3 girls on a road trip, all about showcasing BS and forcing the viewers to sympathize or feel sorry for her in looking for her mother. Or those vanity-theme tv shows where situations and people react and revolve around one person or family, the Cosby show. Something like Fraser, where Kelsey Grammer was the star and focus, yet all his supporting characters were just as interesting and can carry the show even when Kelsey Grammer took time off.
For Captain America, he is the star and focus, but the super-soldier serum just compensated for his lack of physique and strength, and the community spirit or soldiers that he's leading are also interesting and important to the movie.
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| Posted: 13 Dec 2008 03:34 |
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Heroes are regualr people, they put there lives to save us.
That doesn't make them greater than us, but it does make, what we call "Hero".
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| Posted: 15 Dec 2008 17:37 |
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Quote:
Heroes are supposed to be better than us. That's why they're called heroes.
I respectfully disagree. Pride before the fall. Batman for example is on par with Superman in a lot of cases because Bats knows not to underestimate his foes. Superman tends to fly head first into a fight knowing that he can't be harmed (magic and Kryptonite are rare.)
People like heroes because they're at risk, they struggle, they can be killed. Otherwise, they're demigods. Superman is a hero because he struggles to fit in. He protects the weak and innocent while hiding his identity. Why? Because if a villain were to know his identity, he could use loved ones as hostages. THAT's what makes a hero great.
Jolly Rogers
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| Posted: 16 Dec 2008 01:15 |
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What I'm, talking about is, for example, is stuff like Smallville. In the first few seasons we had to listen to Clark complain about not wanting to have superpowers. He should be willing to be a superhero and save people. Nowadays writers are giving heroes way too many flaws.
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| Posted: 16 Dec 2008 08:35 |
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I think why some writers do give them flaws is to make them relate able and more believable to the viewing audience. What we see in superhero movies, is someone who can do things we can not, be who we are not able to be, stand for a just cause. Sure sure you can be a hero in a different sense in life. But I think I for one can relate to spidermans character to being the small guy in school and being picked on. When I was in the service I wanted to be a version of Cap, I could identify with his love of country for I have the same. I think its what makes a superhero truely believe is show they have some for of weakness, some for of regular human like qualities,emotion, it helps the common folks like to us to identify with.
thats just my two sense
spiderman
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| Posted: 17 Dec 2008 00:06 |
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I understand that writers give characters flaws to make them more believable and if you're talking "flaws" as in Peter Parker being the nerd and the victim of the bullies, then that's not what I'm not talking about. I'm talking about moral flaws. Heroes sleeping around, cussing like sailors, having drinking problems, etc.
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| Posted: 18 Dec 2008 21:55 |
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Quote:
I understand that writers give characters flaws to make them more believable and if you're talking "flaws" as in Peter Parker being the nerd and the victim of the bullies, then that's not what I'm not talking about. I'm talking about moral flaws. Heroes sleeping around, cussing like sailors, having drinking problems, etc.
You mean like Iron Man? All those flaws were there in the books. Hawkeye was a criminal, Spidey wanted ot be a prowrestler. Heck, even Cap and Bucky were too young kids who just wanted to bust Nazi skulls in. Not exactly heroic motivation.
The whining about super powers, is annoying, I'll grant you that, but again that's also taken directly from the books in several instances (though not super boy specifically).
The entire superhero genre has this issue of humans given the chance to be gods, and the difficulties that they face because of this.
The moral ambiguity of it all is what kept me reading long after I outgrew the whiz bang of a right across hitler's jaw. Don't get me wrong, I still love the action, but there comes a time when you want a human story as well.
I think of it like reading playboy. Sure when you're a kid you just want to look at the pictures, but eventually you start reading the articles, and eventually, the pictures are just fun little tease for the cutting edge fiction and editoral opinion that fill the magazine.
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| Posted: 19 Dec 2008 01:01 |
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Those "flaws" make the characters more popular.
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| Posted: 19 Dec 2008 04:21 |
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Good point about Iron Man, but Hawkeye and Spidey were not heroes then. I forgave Hawkeye and he eventually became my favorite--second only to Cap--but that was when he reformed. It wasn't till he stopped being a criminal that he became a hero. i wouldn't like it if he did those things now that he is a hero. You wouldn't either right?
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| Posted: 19 Dec 2008 04:22 |
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Quote:
Heck, even Cap and Bucky were too young kids who just wanted to bust Nazi skulls in.
WHAT??!?!??!?!?!
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| Posted: 19 Dec 2008 12:45 |
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O.k. maybe that assessment is a little harsh, but back in 1941, the characters weren't really very well fleshed out, and that lack of moral ambiguity, with later reading can actually lead to even greater moral ambiguity.
The humanity of villians doesn't go away just because the hero ignores it, and in its own way that lack of concern for the difficulties of heroism lead to an even greater emphasis on it.
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| Posted: 20 Dec 2008 00:36 |
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1941 didn't have what we have now.
Plus, The Great Depression.
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| Posted: 20 Dec 2008 05:05 |
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What makes a hero? Standing for what is honest and good, even if it is uncomfortable and inconvenient. Isn't that a struggle for each of us? And if it is a struggle for each of us mere mortals, how much more of a struggle is it for superheroes? Add to that, the RESPONSIBILITY of having the powers they posess, and their own all too human flaws. That complexity has always been a tough writing challenge for screenwriters. Plus add on the fact that most of them have not been in depth readers of the comic they are hired to write for the most part. How long have most of us been reading Captain America? 40 years? More? We have very in depth discussions. These message boards are proof of that. If we, who are as in depth readers of the book as we are have conflicts as to what should be in the film, how much more difficult is it for someone who probably has not read the book, especially through the years which show how the character has progressed.
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| Posted: 20 Dec 2008 16:42 Last Edited By: Pole805 |
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Estsanatlehi, I agree.
They stand up for good, honest, justice.
Now Anti-Heroes (not enemies) such as The Punisher stand for something different than just justice.
Anti-Heroes put them out in a more dangerous situtation, not caring whether or not they're going to die.
Hereos put them selves in dangerous danger KNOWING that the're either going to live fighting for the people, or die as a remebered hero. (Like Cap)
Captain America:
Puts himslef in real danger, such as guns and all that sutff.
Of course as I said earlier in this post, "Live to fighting for the people, or die as a remebered hero"
Captain America's a different situation, infact ALL the heroes did in Civil War.
Those heroes/anti-heroes put themselves in in like a "War" between heroes.
Civil War comics as the same connection with the REAL Civil War.
Cap is still a lengedary hero, that only possibly grown-ups know about, 'Cause all the kids all are into Spider-Man, Wolverine and all.
Hero: Estsanatlehi's words:
Standing for what is honest and good, even if it is uncomfortable and inconvenient
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| Posted: 23 Dec 2008 23:48 |
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Why are you guys veering away from the topic? I thought we could discuss all the problems with a Cap movie so that the powers-that-be can make a VERY GOOD MOVIE, or a pretty fine movie that'll do well and introduce Cap to the general audience.
Take in mind: Movies attract millions and a lot of attention, that means, if the movie sucks or very bad, it'll just ruin Captain America or any future movie, tv or cartoon features on Cap. That 1990 Cap movie never got mass distribution, attracted little attention on video and on tv, but did hurt the appeal of Cap to the general audience. I was hoping it'll be like the Incredible Hulk or Blade3, good movie, most critics liked it, but through it didn't make that much money or match Iron Man's box office receipts, it made the Hulk looked good and open for future movies, tv and cartoons.
Check out Catwoman, Steel or Electra, they were very bad movies and are still talked about how bad they are.
Cap isn't like Batman, that after Batman and Robin, the studios were willing to spend millions to make good Batman movies, Batman begins and the Dark Knight.
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| Posted: 24 Dec 2008 04:35 |
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I don't think that people are straying from topic. The problem is and always will be that the people who write the superhero movies probably don't even read one book until commissioned to write the movie. That, and if they spin it to their own and the producer's ideas of "their interpretation". It's difficult to interpret without a complete and thorough knowledge of what you are writing about. Could I write a Spiderman piece? No! I don't know the intricacies of character well enough.
The tv movies of Captain America had nothing to do with the character of Captain America and what he was about. I have to say I never saw the 1990 Captain America movie because it didn't show in my area.
Superhero movies are perhaps the toughest to script for this reason and a preconceived idea that comics are for "kiddies". It took Star Trek to wean the powers that be that Sci-Fi was not kiddie fare only.
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 24 Dec 2008 20:04 |
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Once again I agree 100% with Estsanatlehi.
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| Posted: 26 Dec 2008 01:12 |
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See, you brought up one problem that I didn't consider, that a writer had little knowledge of Cap when penning the screenplay.
As for the 1990 Cap movie, if you've seen it, you would've been dissappointed with the whole Cap franchise. When I saw the bootleg copy, I was in denial that it was a bad movie, and after a few friends viewed that movie, I accepted that it was a bad movie, but happy that very few people saw it. Hopefully, with Joe Johnson helming this pic, a team of Marvel writers and editors who know Captain America going over the look and script, and us pointing the flaws and good points of Cap, it'll be a great movie to be enjoyed by the general public. Johnson did Jurassic Park 3, that movie was good enough for those who didn't know much about dinosaurs.
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| Posted: 27 Dec 2008 02:16 |
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I do hope that Joe Johnson will take the time to read the comic from its beginnings to the present day. With the CD ROM out there, it's not like he has to try to buy the books so that's one logistical problem out of the way.
From various sources, I would say I was saved or blessed from not having seen the 1990 movie.
I wait to see how things progress in this area. One good thing is that they don't seem to be rushing into things just to crank it out.
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 31 Dec 2008 03:24 |
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I'm happy that Estsanatuehi didn't see that 90s Cap movie, see if you can find those 2 Reb Brown Captain America movies, made around 79, 81 (Failed tv pilots). Those shows were good.
How many Superhero movies have you all seen? I just saw the Catwoman, and after the bad reviews for Punisher; War zone and the Spirit, I'm going to wait and maybe catch it on video-borrowed-from-a-friend.
I've been trying to see all superhero movies since the 67 Batman and George Reeves' Superman tv shows, includeing Wonder Woman, Hulk, Flash, and Spiderman tv shows, Dr. Strange and Cap failed pilot movies, Dolph Lundgren's Punisher, Crow 1, Spawn, all Xmen, all Superman, all Batman movies, ...missed a few here and there, like Blade 3, and I'm certain I've caught most of the similar trends that's in all SH movies. It's like noticing the similar trends in all those Meg Ryan/JLO romantic movies.
For me, I saw Cap as a soldier and leader. And the only thing I can see that'll make this Cap movie stand out from the other superhero movies, is that Cap is a War epic. Check out James Bond, Thunderball, Moonraker and Living Daylights, where Bond was battling bad guys with soldiers fighting around him.
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