| Posted: 22 Sep 2008 17:02 |
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Quote:
jitterypillow, giving out too much information for 27 years now
funny.
out-of-place, yes.
but funny.
Thanks Jitterypillow (must be a story behind the name...) but the gents above are entirely correct, let's get back on topic.
Jolly Rogers
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| Posted: 05 Mar 2009 08:19 |
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This is very sad how none of you want John to be the Captain just because he's gay
and for those who wouldnt go see it, if Barrowman was in it I'd see it a billion times! 
__________________Torchwood: Children of Earth -- Summer 2009
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| Posted: 05 Mar 2009 19:29 |
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Just because? Define just because.
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| Posted: 06 Mar 2009 04:13 |
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Being gay has absolutely, positively nothing to do with it! The man is simply not a very good actor, and would not be capable of bringing all the levels of character that Captain America demands. It needs a top level actor to make it a multi-dimensional character. He is also arrogant, which will only hamper his portrayal of Captain America.
WickedFabala borders on insulting with his statement above. None of my previous posts on this topic has anything to do with his being gay.
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 09 Mar 2009 17:33 |
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Tim;
Just because, means a sole reason. Meaning that if this guy were strait one might give him a shot in the role, but because he's not one wont.
There are legitimate reasons not to want an openly gay actor in a role from a marketing perspective.
There even more reasons not to have an actor most identified with middle budget scifi in the role.
I'll say I'm not a big fan of his face, or body for the role (boy aren't we a bunch of queens worrying about the lad's musculature). But if he is gay, strait, or into blow up dolls doesn't really make an issue for me.
If he's a good actor, then he can play the role, if he's a bad actor, then he will ruin the role. his sexual orientation has no more barring on his performance then Rockhudson's did on his.
Is it politicaly sensitive to have an actor who is gay in the role of Captain America? Certainly, but is that a deal breaker? No.
Truthfully, I think given the gay rumors aroudn the character you'd have a bigger media firestorm over a gay actor in the role of batman than Cap. Likewise, since the man would likely be under strict orders to not get all political while serving under contract as Cap I doubt his homosexuality would be a big issue for anyone other than those for whom homosexuality is a big issue in general.
Remember, Cap remains Cap, no matter who plays him. the character, his identity, his relationships all remain the same. The issue is finding the best actor to bring those relatioships to life. If heath ledger were alive (drugged out freak that he was) I think he might have made a good Cap. If Marlon Brando were still in his Prime I think he might have made a good Cap. Now, are you going to tell me, these men's private lives would have made Cap unwatchable?
Great actos often have deamons that Cap simply doesn't possess. But what make them great actors is that they can put aside those deamons and let a new being inhabit their form.
If they made a Cap film in the 60's would you have balked at Rock Hudson in the role (with Doris Day as Agent 13 of course)? No, so the fact that some 20 years later you find out Cap was played by a gay man is a shock, but it doesn't really make the original film any less good.
So just judge the movie on it's own merits regardless of who plays the role. They could cast a quite soft spoken gay man who lives a quite life in the country with his long time life partner. Or they could cast some actor who is in a differnt bed every night, some times waking up in a bed with no idea how they got there.
Cap is a fictional character, and no real human being is going to be able to live up to his moral and ethical standards. But the actor doesn't need to lvie cap's life, simply communicate that life to us as an audience.
I'll wager words were put in caps mouth by gay men or women over the years, and his well muscled frame was likely rendered by someone at somepoint who was gay as well. That didn't make Cap gay, that didn't shame the image of the hero. It just showed that the hero is always greater than the sum of his parts.
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| Posted: 09 Mar 2009 19:57 Last Edited By: Tim |
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Look I don't want to give you a hard time, or make people that share your opinion feel as though I'm some angry guy.
But I just don't agree. I wouldn't want Rock Hudson playing Cap either. I want a tough guy to play Cap. If you think a gay guy can be a big tough World War II superhero type then ok that's good for you, but I don't think so.
Personally, though I don't want to know if anybody is gay or not. I really, really, really don't want to know no more than I want to see somebody naked in the privacy of their own home. Just leave me out of it. If you have to do your thing, then keep it to yourself for crying out loud. People these days got no decency. That's why we got idiots on Jerry Springer talking about their sex life for the whole world to see and hear.
I have a certain ideal of what a tough guy should be or shouldn't be, and I'd like to see Captain America fit those requirements. I don't want him dressed up in some half gay outfit like they did Superman with those tinee tiny shorts and Batman with the nipples.
Seriously, I even like some old gay actors for the work they have done in the past, but still at least they didn't run around bragging about it.
Call me old fashioned, but right and wrong don't change like the color of my wife's shoes every day.
Oh and you know I hope this isn't taken worst than it might read. A lot is lost without seeing the attitude on a person's face or hearing the sound of their voice. I'm not mad, angry or otherwise. I just like to be honest whether it gets me into trouble or not that's another matter.
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| Posted: 10 Mar 2009 02:08 |
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Hey Tim, I just want to make clear I don't think you're mad or angry, I understand that you just have a strong opinion.
Others have an equally strong opinion.
I guess my point is, less than can a gay guy be a big tough guy, but that, I am far more concerned about Cap being a good actor than what the actor does in his off time.
I can gaurantee you that the studios have guys that run through these boards to get the fan reaction, and it is highly unlikely that a gay actor would be Cap. It is a tough sell to have a gay actor as an action hero if the character isn't gay. There just are the same prejudices that you would expect in the world of action film lovers that would prevent it. I do think that's a little sad, but it is the world we live in.
You know as much as I love the Reb Brown Cap Movies for their nostalgia, Reb just was not that good of an actor. And when people say Cap needs to have this look, and exemplify these qualities, well, that was Reb. He had the body, he had the jaw, he had the easy heroism that embodies Cap. But he had a very limited acting range, and that showed through. That alone didn't ruin the film of course weak plots and bad fx hurt the film more. But when Lou Ferigno can out act you, you need to reprioritize what you need to look for in a cap.
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| Posted: 10 Mar 2009 02:56 |
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Up until "Wicked Fabala" made his comment, the discussion has been spirited but respectful. As I repeated before, it is of little or no importance if the actor is gay or straight. The important thing is the acting ability to be able to portray Captain America well. Remember, the track record of films of Captain America is not good. First there were the two made for tv films which bore no relation to Captain America the book. And the pitiful movie with Matt Salinger that slid in and out. This is why the important part of the movie is that it is written well, directed well, and has an actor that can bring out the complexities of character and physical of Captain America. If the movie is to be credible and succeed it has a lot to overcome.
An actor I admire tremendously on stage, film and television, is Ian McKellan. The fact he is gay means absolutely nothing to me. I didn't refuse to see LOTR and the X-Men movies because he was gay. For "Wicked Fabala" to come up with that nonsense borders on insulting Captain America fans. Gays were a target in Hitler's Germany, remember that. Captain America would have protected gays because they were human beings with a right to a life with dignity. I'll go to the political site to offer my views of other issues.
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 10 Mar 2009 16:23 |
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Well I doubt that a superhero would take the time to think about whether or not this person needs rescuing or that person based on their lifestyle, but starring in a action movie is a whole other ball game. Heck, you know I think the reason Ian McKellan can get away with it is because for one I don't hear a lot about what he does in his personal life, and two he's got that shakespearan attitude thing going on that most guys probably think is gay anyway. I mean you know shakespeare just ain't tough. 
Thing is a gay Cap doesn't fit in with the whole mom apple pie baseball scenario. That doesn't mean I want bad things for gay people because I don't think a gay guy is my ideal hero. I'm of a mind that the subject shouldn't even be approached on a movie that kids go to.
Remember we are talking about a childhood icon. A hero. I'm not of the mind to say to this generation of kids that the gay lifestyle is heroic. When they grow up they can sort through all of it, but let's not let hollywood dictate what is good and what is bad in life, or what is heroic or what isn't. Too often we let hollywood decide our morals. It's time for hollyweird to just make stuff for the sake of entertainment and let the teaching right and wrong stay with the parents.
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| Posted: 10 Mar 2009 18:13 |
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Again, Tim, really, Cap isn't gay!
Cap will be the same red blooded american icon you remember. He will be a young kid filled with a desire to right wrong and will allow himself to be a test subject in an experiment if it means he can do some small part to end fascism. He will be a hero who fights for everyone who can't. He will be a hero in every sense of the word, he will be the first Avenger, the first among heros, the one that inspires a nation to take up arms in the struggle against that which would snuff out freedom.
That he is played by a gay guy or a drug addict or a womanizer is the question. Like I said, whomever plays him, he won't be cap, and will never be able to live up to the ideal of cap. The very best you can hope for is a good actor. And unfortunatly when you start cutting out the gay guys, the drug addicts, and the womanizers, well your starting to run out of good actors to choose from.
Heck I don't know if Cap came to life out of the books if he could really live up to his own ideal. And I also don't know if he can act.
Having an actor who happens to be gay playing cap makes being gay no more heroic than having a gay guy play a facist makes it evil.
It's a role, it is make believe, and the most important part is that the actor make the role believeable. If they can make cap believable, who cares what the fellow does in his off time.
Or perhaps you just want some big beefy guy who can't act in the role? Sure he'd look the part, but would he really be believeable? The guy in question at the top, I don't know if he an act, and bringing Cap to life will take someone who can really act, and in that I am nervous. But baring Phillip Seymor Hoffman trading 10 lbs of fat for muscle. We all are likely to have to make some sacrafices in what we want for the Actor who play's Captain America.
I'm still rooting for Matt Damon, since Cap was a Mets fan (at least in some stories) he might be willing to play the roll. But I know making Cap a Yankees fan would be a deal breaker.
Of course then we'd have to ask if a Red Sox fan could really embody the essence of Captain America, the ultimate hero born in Hell's Kitchen New York.
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| Posted: 10 Mar 2009 18:59 |
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Not to be to awfully combative, but I can think of one guy right off the top of my head.
Clayton Moore
Lived by the code of the Lone Ranger, always kept up an appearance of morality for all his young fans.
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| Posted: 10 Mar 2009 19:38 |
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O.k...but...well, I'm not sure if he's up to it. Being you know...no longer with us.
Also, I'm not sure his acting abilities were up to what would be required for the role.
Just as a point, this won't be a lame black and white action adventure. It will likely mirror the modern Cap comics, as a man struggeling to be a symbol for a nation that often does not live up to it's ideals.
It's not about always doing right for God and Country. It's about always doing right despite what God and Country may say. The differnce is what gives Cap depth and meaning, and not something that some guy who doesn't understand the darkness in the world that he hopes to rail against will likely be able to pull off.
Sure there's some nice guys out there, Brendon Fraiser for example, comes off as a really nice guy, and would make a great Cap, and he can Act. I don't know if he's up for the role or would want it, the same goes for Matt Damon.
I just don't see a reason to administer a loyalty oath to the actor for the part. They're going to be a human being. They are going to have weaknesses, just like Cap has weaknesses.
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| Posted: 10 Mar 2009 20:17 |
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Quote:
I'm not sure if he's up to it. Being you know...no longer with us. Just pointing out there have been actors in this world that did try to live by a higher moral standard. It's not impossible for someone to live a decent life. We all make mistakes but we don't have to wallow around in them like a pig in a mud trough.
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It's about always doing right despite what God and Country may say. Ok, so if he thinks he knows better than God wouldn't that make him Satan?
Matt Damon is too liberal and too political. Since Captain America is liable to be seen as being political anyway it's best to go with somebody who is not overly political. I mean they can be seen at political conventions or what not, just not heard making angry divisional comments that anger one side or the other.
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| Posted: 10 Mar 2009 22:44 |
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Well, as Huckleberry Finn once said "I guess I'll go to Hell then."
An interesting point about Clayton Moore, he tied his moral fortitude directly too his portrayal of the Lone Ranger.
That may have been (as soo many things are) a publicity stunt, but it raises the issue. If a man plays Cap, might he not be moved to be the man that Cap was?
As to Matt Damon's liberalism. Like anything it's relative. A fully a political actor with no opinions in a world so full of issues that require a stand (on both sides of the issues) simply wouldn't have the moral sense of character by your standards to play the role.
All I'm saying, is get a good actor, everything else will follow. If the actors good enough he will come to understand Cap on a deep personal level. That will be enough to have him seek to honor the ideal of the character.
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| Posted: 11 Mar 2009 01:46 |
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Fair enough, I think the best move Marvel can make is to get someone you and I can both get behind. A good actor that is believable in the part and doesn't make the enquirer every week.
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| Posted: 11 Mar 2009 01:57 |
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Hey Matches, in answer to your question if a Red Sox fan could embrace a Captain America born in Hell's Kitchen... Yes! Me!
Estsantlehi
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| Posted: 11 Mar 2009 06:29 |
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So then it's settled, Matt Damon for Cap. =o)
Actually I really had no idea that he was in any way political, aside from you know, just random politics stuff that actors might show up at. Save the Emu and what not. If it's the kind of thing where you'd have to follow politics to know he was political, and the film itself is not overtly political, his politics probably wouldn't enter into it.
He does seem like a fairly good guy, politics aside. Stable relationship with a none actress wife. Just a regular joe from Boston trying to make good. And he can act!
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| Posted: 11 Mar 2009 15:23 |
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I know some people didn't like Ben Affleck in Daredevil, but I like Ben Affleck as an actor despite the fact he's a liberal just because any time I've heard him speak of politics he's done it respectfully to the other side. Damon on the other hand has in the past been a big smart alec about it.
In my book Daredevil was a fun movie to watch. Loved Pearl Harbor too. Heck, I'd be ok if Ben Affleck played Captain America. I know a bunch of folks would get all crazy over that one, but I could live with it.
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| Posted: 12 Mar 2009 03:06 |
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Holy crap. This is awful. You can say what you want, get mad, I dont care, a gay foreigner as Captain America is about as ignorant as it gets. I said before on this site that whoever represents Cap is a big thing. He doesn`t just represent a bunch of nerds drooling over comics, this is a comic hero set in our world. A true American hero. Come on! He represents the VERY BEST of what America is. Yeah. A gay man played Magneto and did well, but Magneto doesn`t represent a nation. Our nation. I dunno. The guy may be able to act but from all I`ve read he`s just not it. Sorry, but its my opinion.
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| Posted: 12 Mar 2009 15:37 |
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I have no problem with your statments.
You know I'm glad you brought up the nerd thing. Did you see Heroes the other day with all the nerds drooling over the cheerleader in the comic shop? My wife thinks only nerds collect comics now.
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| Posted: 12 Mar 2009 15:49 |
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I actually liked Daredevil too (though I didn't quite get why bullseye was Irish, it's not like the actor in question couldn't do an american accent), and wouldn't have minded Aflek as cap, but I do think that after playing Daredevil, and George Reeves (a classic tortured soul who brought life to a hero inspite of his conflicts with it) he may personally be in the mood to avoid the role.
To Pingclang, I will say, just to get off the gay thing I would have no problem with an englishman, heck even a frenchmen playing the role so long as he can do a convincing american accent. For example, I think Dolph Lundgren is actually a very underated actor, he has no accent to speak of, and would have had (in his prime) the musculature and athletic ability play Cap (I don't think he would be a good choice today, far too old, but maybe the Skull or Baron von Struker).
We are a nation of immigrants, so I see no problem with an immigrant taking up the shield to honor Cap.
On a second Note, Reb Brown is still around I wonder if he might get the nod to do a Cameo in the film (ala Lou Ferigno in the Hulk films). I forget the name of the Seargent always giving Steve Rogers a hard time in the Comic, but theres a role he could pick up as a nod to the fans.
Personally, within the question of Cameos I'd love to have (at the very begining) the Pre-Cap Steve Rogers working at Timely Comics (or at least trying to) as an illustrator. It might even be a good way to work in the classic cover of Cap Knocking out Hitler. Have him showing the pages to his Editor (played by Stan Lee of course) and being told it's too controversial.
It could be cool.
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| Posted: 12 Mar 2009 16:12 |
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I like the idea of Reb Brown doing a cameo. That would be a great nod to old Cap fans.
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| Posted: 12 Mar 2009 17:32 |
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Brown's living in Australia (Not the European one), and made a cameo in the Sorbo's Hercules the Legendary Journey (He played a ghost of a dead warrior and asked Hercules to help his wife and son, I think that was the episode).
Marvel had rented some areas around the Los Angeles area to do some of their movies, so, Reb Brown would take a cross-Atlantic flight, 5-7 hours, show up for the day to do a 5 minute cameo.
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| Posted: 12 Mar 2009 18:34 |
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He's an actor, he'll make the trip. That's pretty much what actors do. It's not like he'd have to pay for the flight, that's ususally worked into the cost of actor.
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