| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 18:33 |
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I have just gone to all kinds of sites to get information from all sides, and that is just the volume I have gotten from all sources. I am an Independent so I'm not in love with either side of the aisle.
Good for your sticking to your views, and I will stick to mine.
Estsanatlehi 
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 21:33 |
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Right and wrong certainly can be determined by human beings, as thousands of societies have done so before the bible or koran existed, as well as without those two books. And it's not like Christian nations don't have their fair share of blood.
How much blood are we talking? The approximately 3,500 killed over the 350 year period of the Spanish Inquisition? The Crusades? A war of defense fought against the Islamic powers that had previously fought their way into France before being stopped by Charles Martel? Certainly we Christians have fought each other like cats and dogs, but in terms of willingness to kill ones own citizens the worst Christian ruler (Charles IX of France) who approved the murder of 10,000 Huguenots wouldn't even get into the top 50 atheist murderers.
Human beings may agree with a morality, but if they knowingly create it then they can knowingly change it. Even without doing that they can go so far as to claim that whilst killing a human being is wrong, the group they want to kill is not human. Abortionists do it all the time.
It is a common error to assume that all societies had a moral code equivalent to Christianity's. Tribesmen in Papua New Guinea believed that the greatest good was to befriend a member of another tribe before clubbing him and eating him. Their beliefs made presenting the Gospel difficult. They thought that Judas was the hero of the story. Of course by your criteria they can't be criticized. That was their moral code. The Code of Hammurabi which may predate the Mosaic Code included the very Islamic idea that thieves should be mutilated as punishment. By comparison the Mosaic Code commanded that thieves should repay what they had stolen, but that human beings were more important than property. You could be put to death for crimes against people (rape and murder usually) or receive a punishment equivalent to the damage you did (an eye for an eye, although that was usually punished with a severe fine) but not for stealing their property.
I was wrong to make the blanket statement that humans cannot define what is right and wrong. But then point I was making was that when human beings try, you end up in a situation where might makes right. In the West it's usually legal might. The government creates increasingly demanding laws enforced with the threat of state sanctioned violence by the police. Compared to Augustine's "love, then do as you will", working on the principle that if you love someone (that is, you are seeking their best interests) you won't need to be prohibited from abusing and murdering them, this legal might has to proscribe anything and everything that is contrary to the beliefs of the lawmaker.
John Adams was right to say that constitutional government required the people to have a common religious and moral heritage. Without it you just end up with more laws and more police.
In other countries their violence is usually more explicit. The communist state trained children to inform on their parents in the hope of stopping "anti-revolutionary" sentiment. Of course Christian belief with its innate resistance to forming unqualified allegiances to any nation was a very anti-revolutionary sentiment and the communists paid careful attention to trying to eliminate it. According to Richard Wurmbrand, in Stalin's time men were employed in the prisons to sodomize Nuns and Christian girls.
At least within the Christian paradigm it is possible to criticize those who step outside the moral boundaries with an appeal to an external moral code. "x is wrong because God forbids x" Atheists are proud of telling us that they chose their morality and it is not binding to anyone but themselves. If that is the case then they cannot use "their" morality to criticize Christians, and they certainly cannot use "their" morality to criticize atheists like Lenin, Stalin, Mao and co.
Of course atheists are not entirely consistent. "Do what you want, but keep an eye out for the police" seems to be their way.
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2008 22:29 |
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Have you posted on my http://reallypolitical.com/ site?
We have these kind of discussions all the time. We welcome Christians and atheists not to mention republicans and democrats to debate.
It appears you know a lot about history. I'd love to hear more about the Crusades. All I ever hear is Christians bad, muslims mad.
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| Posted: 30 Aug 2008 03:41 |
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Yeah, I don't think you paid much attention when Ted Kennedy's tumor came to light: I saw plenty of froth from the right (see Anne Coulter, Rush Limbaugh and Michael Savage, just for starters).
i don't know what you're talking about. What did they say?
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| Posted: 30 Aug 2008 22:56 |
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I do wonder what did they say?
Anne Coulter might say anything. That much I have to admit.
My hero right now is Ted Nugent. Heard him on TV the other day.
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| Posted: 30 Aug 2008 23:35 |
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Oh yeah! Ted Nugent: The Motor City Madman! I like him too. What did he say?
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| Posted: 31 Aug 2008 19:58 |
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He was talking about all the entitlement attitudes that are out there now.
Something to the effect people are whining about the government paying for their kids college, and then he said people that weigh 350 pounds, drink, and smoke shouldn't expect the government to pay for their health care. Stuff like that.
The healthcare thing was what really made me take notice. I see more and more obese people all the time and more and more complaining about the healthcare system. I think affordable healthcare is important, but when are people going to take some responsibility into their own hands?
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| Posted: 31 Aug 2008 20:49 |
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Yeah, I agree completely, man.
Its the liberals that are seeking to help everybody, even when they don't need it. I remember this old Chinese proverb that goes something like this: "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime." The liberals believe in the first part, the conservatives believe in the second.
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| Posted: 01 Sep 2008 15:53 |
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yeah and if a man has to catch his own fish he'll probably burn off enough calories to not be obese.
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| Posted: 01 Sep 2008 18:10 |
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I never thought of it that way, but taht's probably true too.
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| Posted: 01 Sep 2008 18:32 |
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Being outspoken about his conservative and Christian beliefs was what made him fit for the role
Then why did we declare war on Hitler? I mean, if the qualifications for being Cap are being RIGHT wing, then we wouldn't have stood in the way of facism alongside Communism, would we?
1-------------------------5-------------------------10
Liberal moderate Conservative
there are different levels of political stance. You have moderate conservatives that VOTE for Conservative values, you have moderate liberals that vote for liberal values. That's about a 4-6 range. Then you have politically driven people that PICKET for their values, those are the level 3 Liberals and the level 7 conservatives (by the chart). there are also people that could be seen as taking it too far. For example: A skin-head spray paints "God hates queers" on someone's house. Or Green Peace cutting a licensed Corporate fishing net: these are the level 2 liberals (Left wingers) and the level 9 conservatives (Right wingers). The Level 1 liberals (Radicals) and the level 10 conservatives (Reactionaries) are people that injure others in the name of a cause. Hitler, was a REACTIONARY. The Black Panthers are RADICALS. Following military orders is the exception, you can formally disapprove that an action is to be taken as long as you do it, but insubordination/treason is punishable by summary execution. Isn't it?
MY point is that Captain America should stand pretty darn close to a moderate 5. No, he's a conservative icon, that I'm sure. But to say that he'd attack someone for having a difference of opinion is INSANE.
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That's "bear false witness"
Uh, I wasn't talking about a Grizzly or Kodiak, I was talking about strain brought on by responsibility, pregnancy, or duty. As in the phrase (not frais) "Grin and BARE it."
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He declined because he said that it is not any one party's America that he represents, it is the idyllic America, what this country CAN and COULD be, not what it SHOULD be. Because as soon as you start saying "should," you start to dismiss other people's versions of "should," and that's never what Cap was about.
Thank you Estanatlehi, that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about. It's Vol. 1 issues 250-254.
"He's the People's Choice: Captain America for President!" It's also in a trade called CA War and Rememberance.
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he walked beside Martin Luther King Jr, in the equal rights rallies?
 ...Really? Heston did? That IS news to me. I thought he was a great man before, but that just goes to show his true "Caliber."...
When it comes to political analysis by Ann Coultier (that French?), I just grin and bare it. Rush Limbaugh? Up your dose and take a nap. Don't forget what they ORIGINALLY said about McCain. Don't forget that they said they'd vote Hillary into office before McCain. Ann said, Hillary's more conservative than McCain...and if she's elected, at least the White House will get it's silverware back.
I look at the issues more than the party affiliation, but that's just me.
Jolly Rogers
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| Posted: 01 Sep 2008 18:41 |
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"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime." The liberals believe in the first part, the conservatives believe in the second.
More like "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach him how to fish and he'll start a business. Show a man who can fish, and someone'll think it's cruelty to animals and break his equipment."
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yeah and if a man has to catch his own fish he'll probably burn off enough calories to not be obese
...okay, you got me there.
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| Posted: 01 Sep 2008 19:01 |
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When it comes to political analysis by Ann Coultier (that French?), I just grin and bare it. Rush Limbaugh? Up your dose and take a nap. Don't forget what they ORIGINALLY said about McCain. Don't forget that they said they'd vote Hillary into office before McCain. Ann said, Hillary's more conservative than McCain...and if she's elected, at least the White House will get it's silverware back.
I remember Ann Coulter saying that...but Limbaugh?!
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Then why did we declare war on Hitler? I mean, if the qualifications for being Cap are being RIGHT wing, then we wouldn't have stood in the way of facism alongside Communism, would we?
Alright, I think you're going a little too far. Comparing conservatives to communists. That's just crazy. Plus, since my comparison of Charlton Heston to Captain America was what made you make the jump to Hitler, are you calling him a reactionary too?
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But to say that he'd attack someone for having a difference of opinion is INSANE.
Thinking that conservatives feel that way is INSANE.
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 04:56 |
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Captain America fights for the right of EVERYONE to be able to voice their opinion in the free and open marketplace of ideas. Without that ability to exchange ideas without punishment, learning is not possible.
What has gotten lost in the Charlton Heston debate is that his support of the NRA was only the surface. He was a believer in the rights as stated in the CONSTITUTION. The general press is what made it an NRA issue and that was all he had worked for. The fact the history of the man showed he stood for RIGHTS FOR ALL got lost in the hysteria. I am a member of a fan group that is international, most outside of the US, and they only knew him for the NRA stand. Some looked up his past work based on comments I made and were amazed.
I am an independent conservative, a believer in the sanctity of life, and a firm believer in personal responsibility. As an adviser to a group of self advocates who have disabilities, I have encouraged them to take more of their destinies into their own hands. When I left the agency, I was stunned by the honours and gifts of these people! In Hitler's Europe, these people would have been gassed or shot because of their disabilities. Captain America would have fought for them also.
Let us enjoy the free exchange of ideas and learn from them even if we don't necessarily agree.
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 14:13 |
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You know if I were to write my take on Captain America he would be conservative. He'd sound like our founding fathers all the time. I used to love reading Cap's patriotic words in the early 80's. Just felt like they had him down pat back then.
Thing is of course Cap is so busy fighting evil to argue anything to specific. So a good writer should be able to have Cap sounding patriotic and still be vague enough that everybody can get behind Cap despite what party you are in, unless someone is some kind of leftist radical.
This reminds me of Lieberman's speech at the GOP. A democrat turned independent, he said Americans should stop looking at themselves as 2 parties, and start looking at itself as one country. That's exactly the kind of attitude a Cap story has to portray. Cap fights to protect freedom, and primarily leaves the legislation to the American people.
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 21:33 |
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Do you remember I believe it was issue #114 (he fought the Scorpion for the first time)? He was commenting on the times: "It isn't hip to defend the establishment", and in the course of the scene, he realises what he fights for transcends the whims and fads of the time; it is something more basic. He realises that that path is not going to be an easy one.
When I was reading issue #25, an image came to mind as Steve Rogers was walking out of the police carrier to the courthouse, especially as some were throwing eggs and rotten vegetables at him. It reminded me of the walk to Golgotha. Not that Steve Rogers/Captain America would ever compare himself to Christ, but he has walked the path few are willing to take because of the pain and sacrifice, but must because of his core beliefs and conscience.
Now I have probably opened the biggest can of worms ever! But having read the book continuously since the 60's, this is the path the character has seemed to walk.
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 21:34 |
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Do you remember I believe it was issue #114 (he fought the Scorpion for the first time)? He was commenting on the times: "It isn't hip to defend the establishment", and in the course of the scene, he realises what he fights for transcends the whims and fads of the time; it is something more basic. He realises that that path is not going to be an easy one.
When I was reading issue #25, an image came to mind as Steve Rogers was walking out of the police carrier to the courthouse, especially as some were throwing eggs and rotten vegetables at him. It reminded me of the walk to Golgotha. Not that Steve Rogers/Captain America would ever compare himself to Christ, but he has walked the path few are willing to take because of the pain and sacrifice, but must because of his core beliefs and conscience.
Now I have probably opened the biggest can of worms ever! But having read the book continuously since the 60's, this is the path the character has seemed to walk.
Estsanatlehi
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 21:49 Last Edited By: EverydaySuperhero |
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I for one don't think your comparison is that far off, and before anyone goes flaming me, I'm Jewish, so if anyone should have a problem with a Jesus reference, it'd be me. But I understand the literary qualities of the Bible (both OT and NT), and how a lot of our modern superheroes can trace their pedigrees back to characters like Moses, Jesus, Samson, etc. But it's a more modernist take - how would it feel, as a human being, to go to sleep at night knowing the weight of the world is on your shoulders? Same deal with Cap. He has to walk that line because, like his letter to Tony said, there is a part of Captain America that is way bigger that Steve Rogers - or by extension, any single man, any single idea, or any single party.
In the "War and Remembrance" storyline mentioned above, Cap was nominated by some third party to run for President, but he said 'no' for the very reasons Estsanatlehi pointed out - he stands for the Declaration of Independence, the Forefathers, the very Eagle on the Great Seal (which also holds a shield, but has its gaze turned towards the olive branches, not the arrows - it's all about a defensive posture). That's why whoever plays Cap in the movie has to have that same moral certainty/political ambiguity about him. He stands not for any version of America, but for all versions and ideals of America.
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| Posted: 04 Sep 2008 15:39 |
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Moral certainty that's the perfect way to describe Cap's mentality.
A hero has to have that otherwise he wouldn't know what he should fight for. So he has to know what he believes in.
I see Cap as being very old fashioned and very certain of right and wrong especially when he first arrives in the modern world. Now after a while in the modern world after the media gets hold of him he's bound to start to feel an immeasurable amount of pressure having his motivations constantly questioned as we all know the modern media would do.
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| Posted: 05 Sep 2008 14:56 |
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The conflicts of his moral certainties with the modern media of today and attitudes are all aspects of a very complicated character which needs an outstanding actor who can bring it across. I hope it's quality not 'star publicity' power they go for!
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 05 Sep 2008 22:15 |
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Estsanatlehi, the proud, conservative Independent voter
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| Posted: 19 Sep 2008 03:11 |
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Human beings may agree with a morality, but if they knowingly create it then they can knowingly change it. Even without doing that they can go so far as to claim that whilst killing a human being is wrong, the group they want to kill is not human. Abortionists do it all the time.
Okay. Killing a respirating, conscious, emoting creature with higher functions such as faith I understand. But who gets to draw the line? 9-months, obviously illegal. 2 months, is it a human? creation of Zygote, is killing a collection of cells illegal? intercourse, is wearing a condom premeditated murder of an unconsieved (sp?) babe?
Is scratching my arm genocide?
Jolly Rogers
Otherwise, scratching my arm would be considered genocide.
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| Posted: 19 Sep 2008 03:22 |
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Don't bother answering that question. I just don't think abortion is anyone's business besides the possible mother and maybe the VERY involved father.
Is it immoral? My religion says without a doubt.
Should it be outlawed, even in cases of sexual abuse? I'm a guy, I have guy parts. Perhaps if I was born a woman that would naturally involve me.
Just do yourself a favor. Ask yourself what book(s) were written in a matriarchal society. Ask yourself, "who WROTE the Old testiment/Bible/Koran?"
Keep the issue between individual and her god.
Jolly Rogers
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| Posted: 19 Sep 2008 03:27 |
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Ugh. Why do I go off on all of this?
Sorry all, let's go back to discussing potential actors.
Jolly Rogers
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| Posted: 19 Sep 2008 23:27 |
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Hey, if wearing a condom is premeditated murder, I must be a genocidal maniac with how often I masturbate...
jitterypillow, giving out too much information for 27 years now 
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| Posted: 20 Sep 2008 02:53 Last Edited By: Stars and Stripes |
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One of the reasons I like this site so much is that the people on here have class, and they refrain from making immature and completely unnecessary remarks like other forums I've seen. It would seem that jitterypillow belongs on one of those forums.
And jitterypillow, for future reference, no one cares to know about anyone's nasty habits--including yours.
Just keep it to yourself, man.
Now, as Jolly Rogers suggested, lets get back to Cap.
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| Posted: 21 Sep 2008 00:09 |
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I created the reallypolitical.com site just for such emergencies. I did find the abortion topic interesting so I started a thread over there on the subject. http://reallypolitical.com/article835.htm
Otherwise yeah lets just keep talking about Cap here.
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| Posted: 21 Sep 2008 01:05 Last Edited By: Stars and Stripes |
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I don't even see how abortion became an issue here. This was more about whether a gay man should play Captain America. It had nothing to do with abortion.
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| Posted: 21 Sep 2008 06:38 |
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THANK YOU TIM. We need to get back to the issue at hand here, and that issue is Cap, not everyone's valid yet out-of-place individual political beliefs. C'mon people, stop making six-pound, eight-ounce baby Steve Rogers cry! (Thank you, Talladega Nights)
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Your absolutely correct. My apologies, I was having a lousy day at the time I compared moderate conservatism with der fuerer. Still, my point is valid that a personality that's been ADVERTISED as being so far right should not be made the symbol of a unified america.
