| Posted: 29 Jul 2008 04:26 |
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First of all, I will go ahead and say that I don't really care where the actor is from, but don't use those other guys (Wolverine, Xavier, Angel) as examples. Because with Cap, its different. And do you know why? His name says it all: CAPTAIN AMERICA.
Captain America is a hero that is characterized by the traditional moral values of the 1940s. He is a symbol of our country; he is a symbol reminding us of what America should be. And using a homosexual to represent what "America should be" is in very bad taste.
Do you know what's going to happen if Barrowman gets chosen? I can see the headlines now: "Marvel chooses gay Captain America". It will look like Marvel is making a political statement, using a gay man to represent America as the traditional hero.
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| Posted: 29 Jul 2008 11:20 |
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I've had a few days to think since last writing about this issue and want to give a little more to the subject. The thing that's being forgotten is that this IS just a movie and we all want it to be a good one. Another is that if we're going to try the old Captain America approach, well the character in the comic did'nt just reacue the straights from the death camps. I myself have never been able to figure out the attraction in that lifestyle. This is one of those times I feel we should just concentrate on the acting ability, and appearance.
Like I said I did think about it and if I felt my voice had been heard and acted on about sexual preferance for just acting a role I probably would NOT go see it as I'd feel as if I'd taken a stand on an issue that this character (Cap) worked to eliminate with other prejudices.
As for the papers, if it would be a headline, it'd probably be just the tabloids...Big Deal.
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| Posted: 29 Jul 2008 15:33 Last Edited By: Tim |
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I don't think it shows prejudice to want a childhood hero to represent the values that you hold dear. Regardless of how people feel on the subject, and I've got a very old fashioned way of looking at it. This movie isn't the place for the liberal media to make it's points.
I've been working on my superhero wiki site lately, and while I was doing the research I was shocked over how many comic book characters are now supposedly supposed to be gay. For my purposes I try to just avoid that subject on my wiki site altogether. I just don't think comic book superheroes are the place for the subject. So I put in all the other info that I can. It's like half the Legion of Superheroes is gay or bi-sexual.
Peter David even turned Comet the super horse into a gay shape shifter. It's gone way too far. I don't know if it's supposed to be hip or what, but there's so many more things to write about.
There was a day when the hero on screen matched up with the actor in real life to some extent. At least in a lot of cases. Take Clayton Moore as the Lone Ranger or Roy Rogers for example.
Now it does boil down to one's moral upbringing and personal beliefs as to what your political beliefs are on the matter. But seeing as how there are still people like me that define it as a sinful lifestyle, is it too much to ask that the characters I grew up with not be redefined in a way that I can no longer enjoy? Comic books are supposed to be fun escapism.
I'm not against a comic book speaking out against prejudice in general where a person's livelihood or general rights that all men share is threatened, but comics have turned into bill boards for a gay lifestyle.
They might as well alienate everybody that doesn't agree with them and choose political candidates as well.
It's like old Bruce Springsteen going on all the time against the war. On one hand he has the right as an American citizen, but on the other he's meshing his music and his political stands into the same mold so if you were an old fan of his and disagreed with him you might think old Springsteen was against you too.
When asked about the Vietnam war in a press conference, Elvis Presley stated that he was just an entertainer. Now he had the right to speak his mind as an American, but he felt more than likely he shouldn't alienate the fans he had that wouldn't have agreed with his position. Smart if you want to keep making money.
I could probably write forever and not feel as though I had really presented my case in the way I wish that I could.
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| Posted: 29 Jul 2008 17:53 |
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I just read his bio. No way, Jose! He is far far far too arrogant. Maybe he has learned a huge amount from his 'hands on' experience, there is still a tremendous amount to be learned in the classroom, including discipline, and listening to others. I've seen him in Dr Who and Torchwood and have never been impressed, and the bio reinforces it! 
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| Posted: 29 Jul 2008 20:54 |
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Wolverines character is supposed to be Canadian, and Xavier is American, but the character isn't really an icon of American pop culture like Captain America is. However, batman definitely is and the new batman movies have been great, despite the majority of the cast being foreigners. Barrowman was born in Scotland but raised in the USA and has dual citizenship, so that makes him American enough for me :P It probably would cause a lot of publicity though, and people would accuse Marvel of just picking him to make a political statement. My personal feelings on sexual orientation don't stop me from watching movies with actors that might be gay though :P.
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| Posted: 29 Jul 2008 21:40 |
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I didn't know that about Comet. Comic books just aint what they used to be.
This has nothing to do with comics, but I read somewhere that after all the Harry Potter books were published, the lady who wrote them came forward and said that her character Dumbledore, was gay. It seems like everybody's trying to make a political statement nowadays.
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| Posted: 30 Jul 2008 01:06 |
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Hi Tim,
All I was saying is if the actor himself is gay,so what, as long as they do not change the sexual orientation of the character in the film I find it to be irrelevant . As for the comic company I haven't heard one word that gee wasn't it great to get former alcoholic Downey Jr. to play Stark who has a drinking problem. As you stated this could go on forever so I'll just give my bottom line. If this movie for Cap or the Avengers is modeled after the stupid Ultimates books they won't get the price of a movie ticket or a rental from me.In this respect I guess I'm old fashioned. Nick Fury has always been a brown haired guy with or without an eye patch, Not some shaved head, scar-face dude. I hold Sgt. Fury from the early 60's as the definative Fury Not Ultimates fury.
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| Posted: 30 Jul 2008 02:08 |
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that gee wasn't it great to get former alcoholic Downey Jr. to play Stark who has a drinking problem. That was great casting. One things for sure I've never thought of Iron Man has being inspirational. In fact lately he's been my least favorite character the way they've written him into a communist attacking Cap, but the movie was great. Took me back to the old days of Iron Man.
I'm a still a kid at heart. I guess I want to look up to Cap in some small way while watching the movie. Ever see Happy Days when the Fonz met the Lone Ranger in real life and went all crazy? Well I might be an adult, but I'd still like to tell the kid in me that's Cap on screen.
I don't go looking for things to be mad about or anything, but I really really hate political correctness. You know the commies were the first to coin that phrase. How in the world did it ever gain popularity in America of all places?
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| Posted: 30 Jul 2008 02:11 |
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Hate to say it bud, but Nick Fury is going to be the Ultimates version that much I know from watching Iron Man and the Hulk. That doesn't bother too much really. If they hadn't introduced a black guy as Nick Fury in the comics, I would have been aggravated that they changed him just for the movie, but as it stands I think they've been preparing for Sam Jackson to be Nick Fury for a long time.
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| Posted: 30 Jul 2008 03:32 |
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I'm not really that upset about Fury being black, since I know he's being played by a good actor, plus he never was one of my favorites anyway. But if they had changed up Cap or Bucky, I would have been mad about it.
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| Posted: 30 Jul 2008 10:17 |
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OK, all I'm saying is the kid in me wants to see the marvel heroes that I grew up with. Not a bearded Thor, no Cap without wings on his mask, and no black Nick Fury.Don't get me wrong, I'd be just as disappointed if the tried to make Luke Cage or T'challa into a white guy.I'd love to see the Avengers find Cap on their own, not being on a mission for Shield. Simply put, stick to the original storyline.
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| Posted: 30 Jul 2008 18:01 |
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I agree. Marvel better not mess this up.
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| Posted: 30 Jul 2008 19:48 |
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As a general rule I do like movie versions to stick to the original as much as possible. I guess I'm just glad Sam Jackson is involved because he's such a good actor usually.
Man that would suck if they made Luke Cage a white guy. Just wouldn't be the same guy.
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| Posted: 30 Jul 2008 21:38 |
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I read in a blog the other day that a veteran is one who writes a blank check on himself up to and including his life. (Almost a direct quote from the blog). To me that is part and parcel of Captain America: a man who so believes in the best of what his country stands for and has the integrity to stand by it no matter the changes in the mores of the time. It is made more difficult because his world that formed him and the present time are so very different.
It is going to take a superb actor to bring across all those complexities and couple it with the physical attributes. All of which discount Barrowman. He can't get past his own ego.
He might have been born in Scotland, but he's no' a Scotsman!
And all this from a Yorkshire/Scot!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| Posted: 30 Jul 2008 23:09 |
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Good point, willingness to sacrifice has to be a key personality ingredient in Cap's personality. The kind of thing found in service men.
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| Posted: 31 Jul 2008 10:30 |
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What? A gay Man to be Captain. In my day this would never have been talked bout. Gays must not wave the flag.
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 04:48 |
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Let me just work my way down the list, here...
Stars and Stripes:
"Captain America is a hero that is characterized by the traditional moral values of the 1940s."
No, Captain America is a hero that is characterized by American values, who was raised in the 30s and 40s. If he had 40s moral values he would protest, among other things, rock music, women in bikinis, and black people being able to use the same drinking fountains as whites. Instead, the character has always celebrated freedom, while emphasizing that at times personal responsibilities must be met to uphold those freedoms.
"He is a symbol of our country; he is a symbol reminding us of what America should be. And using a homosexual to represent what "America should be" is in very bad taste."
Oh, God yes. Cap should absolutely uphold that part of the Declaration of Independence that says "all men are created equal unless they suck cock." I'm sure I read that in there somewhere.
"This has nothing to do with comics, but I read somewhere that after all the Harry Potter books were published, the lady who wrote them came forward and said that her character Dumbledore, was gay. It seems like everybody's trying to make a political statement nowadays."
Or it seems like something like homosexuality can be completely unimportant, and not affect the story at all, unless you decide to make it an issue in your own mind.
Tim:
"This movie isn't the place for the liberal media to make it's points."
I agree. This movie is the place for a damned good story to be told about a hero who fights for freedom, and anybody who can get that point across to people should be eligible for the job. Fuck the media and whatever context they want to put things in. I'll judge for myself.
"There was a day when the hero on screen matched up with the actor in real life to some extent. At least in a lot of cases. Take Clayton Moore as the Lone Ranger or Roy Rogers for example."
I can't help but notice that you didn't mention Rock Hudson or the dad from The Brady Bunch. Good call.
"But seeing as how there are still people like me that define it as a sinful lifestyle, is it too much to ask that the characters I grew up with not be redefined in a way that I can no longer enjoy?"
Nobody's changing the character. Cap is still Cap. When men played female characters in Shakespeare, the characters were still female. If a gay man plays a straight Cap, Cap will still be straight. I don't think Cap will be sucking on lolipops or giving manicures just because he's played by a gay man.
"It's like old Bruce Springsteen going on all the time against the war. On one hand he has the right as an American citizen, but on the other he's meshing his music and his political stands into the same mold so if you were an old fan of his and disagreed with him you might think old Springsteen was against you too."
Dude, Born in the USA was a Viet Nam protest song. That was in 1984. Don't act like he just started bitching about war a year ago.
"When asked about the Vietnam war in a press conference, Elvis Presley stated that he was just an entertainer. Now he had the right to speak his mind as an American, but he felt more than likely he shouldn't alienate the fans he had that wouldn't have agreed with his position. Smart if you want to keep making money."
Mark Twain said "I would never belong to any club that would have me as a member." Not smart to make money, but great for standing your moral ground. I wonder which quote Cap would like better.
"Well I might be an adult, but I'd still like to tell the kid in me that's Cap on screen."
Then, Buddy, get off the Internet. Anything you read about whoever they get to play Cap is going to disappoint you, because there is not one single soul on this planet that is going to be perfect as Cap. Not. One. Sorry to disappoint you.
JBB:
"OK, all I'm saying is the kid in me wants to see the marvel heroes that I grew up with. Not a bearded Thor, no Cap without wings on his mask, and no black Nick Fury.Don't get me wrong, I'd be just as disappointed if the tried to make Luke Cage or T'challa into a white guy.I'd love to see the Avengers find Cap on their own, not being on a mission for Shield. Simply put, stick to the original storyline."
We all ready for, when the Wolverine solo movie comes out next year, Hugh Jackman to have on yellow tights and whiskers? Let's get rid of Superman's ability to fly, while we're at it, and whenever they get around to a Wonder Woman movie, it'll basically be a low budget bondage movie, because she had next to no power and was helpless if tied up by a man.
Not everything translates from comics to movies. Things change, and it's not a bad thing as long as the CORE VALUES of the character are the same. Organic webshooters are no big deal, as long as Peter Parker is still an average guy with real problems. Black leather instead of sleeveless costumes is not only more realistic, it also keeps the X-Men as a group of outcasts who protect the people that hate and fear them. Captain America is a man who fights for what is right, even when his whole world is taken away from him, and that is not changed by the actor playing him being gay.
Oh, and making Cage or the Panther white *would* change their core characters, so it's a completely different argument.
Tim and "Jack Lalane":
Don't ask, don't tell guys. 
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 11:30 |
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jitterypillow, a very well thought out letter, message or whatever we call these things. I was only trying to point out the fact of the traditional Nick Fury. They are currently trying to retcon his history in the Ultimates.
And yes, you could still have the same Core character with a revamped Luke Cage by basically have him grow up in hells kitchen and have him wrongly accused of a crime and sent to prison. I know personally from growing up around Federal Prisons( Dad retired as an Associate Warden)that unjustly so, the mentality is once a con always a con. Which is just as discriminating as racism. So a revamped Cage could have similar challenges.
Hope you didn't take me wrong in my earlier messages, as I've never had a problem with the X-Men costuming or Wolverines look. I just feel that Cap's costume is such a strong representation of our flag.
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 15:28 |
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Well said, JP.
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 17:58 Last Edited By: Pole805 |
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If he had 40s moral values he would protest, among other things, rock music, women in bikinis, and black people being able to use the same drinking fountains as whites. Instead, the character has always celebrated freedom, while emphasizing that at times personal responsibilities must be met to uphold those freedoms. Don't you get it?? He fought in WWII 1930's-1940's He was alive in the 40's, but frozen for years. Why would a great hero protest against that little thing?! COME ON!!!
Cap always wanted people with differences from White people to share and love. Plus you expect a guy who just turned mega strong to fight for freedom right away? Just like "Oh, now that I'm super strong I'm going to fight right now!" Doesn't go that way. May have done it for Spider-Man, not for Cap. He was nervous. He didn't know what to do. He thought "Did I make the wrong choice?"
Like he wanted to fight in WWII none of the soliders wanted to. But they fought anyway.
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| Posted: 01 Aug 2008 19:09 |
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JBB:
Thanks for the compliments. I took no offense in anything you said, I just happen to disagree on some things. And maybe it's the fact that the Luke Cage I'm most familiar with is when he was partnered with Iron Fist, but race was a huge part of that book, and Luke living as a black man in a racially charged time always seemed to me to be more of the story than being an innocent ex-con. The drama, from my and many others' perspectives, came from racial differences, and two friends trying to push through that in a rough neighborhood.
Nomad:
Thanks. I try to balance snideness with fairness. I guess some folks don't agree, and that's their right. Speaking of...
Pole:
"Don't you get it?? He fought in WWII 1930's-1940's He was alive in the 40's, but frozen for years. Why would a great hero protest against that little thing?! COME ON!!!"
Because lots of people from that time DID protest those things? Because while I respect any man willing to put on a uniform and fight for this great country, not all of them are nice guys and do the right thing? Sorry, but fighting in WWII is not what makes Cap a hero. I'm sure Wade can tell you that when he was enlisted, he ran into quite a few assholes that he was annoyed he had to share a uniform with. Cap's values are not centered around the time he lived in, they're centered around the man himself. He's not a hero because of when he was born, he's a hero because of what he is willing to do. If the character were created today, and he had been frozen while fighting in Viet Nam and woken up today, would he be less of a hero? Bullshit. There were dicks in WWII, there were dicks in Nam, there are dicks in Iraq today. None of that has anything to do with Captain America.
"Cap always wanted people with differences from White people to share and love."
Maybe, just maybe, he wants those same freedoms for gay people, too.
"Plus you expect a guy who just turned mega strong to fight for freedom right away? Just like "Oh, now that I'm super strong I'm going to fight right now!" Doesn't go that way. May have done it for Spider-Man, not for Cap. He was nervous. He didn't know what to do. He thought "Did I make the wrong choice?" Like he wanted to fight in WWII none of the soliders wanted to. But they fought anyway."
Dude, have you ever actually read Captain America? Before he got the fucking serum, he was 96 pounds and enlisting in the Army because he wanted to go over and fight to protect people. He was fighting for freedom in every way he could BEFORE he got superstrong! And, I'm not sure if you've ever read Spider-Man, either, because the first things he wanted to do with his powers were make money and get famous. He didn't want to help people until he learned to suffer.
And, just because I'm confused, what does any of that have to do with the actor who *might* play Cap being gay?
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| Posted: 02 Aug 2008 01:52 |
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jitterypillow
Thanks for the quick response, to borrow your quote:
And maybe it's the fact that the Luke Cage I'm most familiar with is when he was partnered with Iron Fist, but race was a huge part of that book, and Luke living as a black man in a racially charged time always seemed to me to be more of the story than being an innocent ex-con. The drama, from my and many others' perspectives, came from racial differences, and two friends trying to push through that in a rough neighborhood.
I guess to put it simply I feel the same about the original Nick Fury being a Sergeant in WWII which is believable but now to use the Sam Jackson one, well I'm sorry to say that in those times a black would not have been put in charge of the 7 or eight men who comprised the Howling Commandoes, go on missions in Germany, and I'm really sure he could have gotten away with wearing a Nazi uniform on many occassions to infiltrate ... NOT! Now moving on to the 50's and 60's Fury became a full blown Colonel, are you catching my drift? This is going way beyond making him a little different, they are re-writing Marvel history and I'm no more amused than the people who said leave the Nazi alone they won't come here! So be careful, you may find one of your own favorite heroes getting the fast and popular overhaul.
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| Posted: 02 Aug 2008 02:21 |
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Because lots of people from that time DID protest those things? Because while I respect any man willing to put on a uniform and fight for this great country, not all of them are nice guys and do the right thing? Sorry, but fighting in WWII is not what makes Cap a hero. I'm sure Wade can tell you that when he was enlisted, he ran into quite a few assholes that he was annoyed he had to share a uniform with. Cap's values are not centered around the time he lived in, they're centered around the man himself. He's not a hero because of when he was born, he's a hero because of what he is willing to do. If the character were created today, and he had been frozen while fighting in Viet Nam and woken up today, would he be less of a hero? Bullshit. There were dicks in WWII, there were dicks in Nam, there are dicks in Iraq today. None of that has anything to do with Captain America. No heart feelings, I understand, but, yeah, I just LOOVE Rock music, Gay people are much different. Not Cap's thing.
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| Posted: 02 Aug 2008 14:34 |
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JBB:
They actually address the point you're making in Ultimates #3, when Cap wakes up. Bruce Banner tells him (and I'm paraphrasing here) "Hi, you won the war for us, it's 60 years later and we're continuing your work, I'm Dr. Banner and this is General Fury," and Cap kicks all their asses, saying "Good job with the accent, Fritz, but the highest ranking black man is a Brooklyn born seargent(sp?) I grew up with".
I understand not wanting to change a lot about Fury, but in continuity, the man is nearly 100 years old now. Tossing in rejuvination formulas and all that works great in comics, but doesn't translate to movies or reality well. Cap in suspended animation is one thing, but the government having access to some fountain of youth formula that is only taken by a secret agent and his sidekick in a bowler hat just won't work. Fury is a character that, to translate for the non-comics people out there, is going to have changes. Maybe they could do an animated movie featuring the Nick we all know and love, but it won't be in the regular flicks. Sorry. Just remember, it could be worse. It could be David Hasselhoff again.
Pole:
Nobody is saying you need to like gay people. Nobody is even saying whether or not Cap likes gay people. All I'm saying is that whether or not the man takes it up the butt does not affect his acting skills. If he can act, give him the job. If he can't, he can go be Northstar for all I care.
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| Posted: 02 Aug 2008 16:23 |
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Got it..
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Nobody is saying you need to like gay people. Good.
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| Posted: 04 Aug 2008 15:07 |
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If he had 40s moral values he would protest, among other things, rock music, women in bikinis, and black people being able to use the same drinking fountains as whites. That's assuming a lot. Everyone who lived in that era didn't hold prejudices against blacks. As far as rock and roll that's a person's personal taste. I'm sure he probably would think a lot of rock music was just plain silly from his perspective. Women in bikinis? A single man in WW2 would never protest it. He might blush a lot, but never protest.
It ain't about liking or disliking gay people. It's about what I consider extremist views being cultivated on screen and somehow by implication being applied to America as a whole. Give us a Captain America that everyone can take their kids to go see and do so with a feeling of pride regardless of their political opinions or whatever. Controversy has no place in a movie that sells products for kids anyway.
If someone like torchwood there got the part, every time he went to a extremist left wing driven political function every kid in America would take notice. Kids shouldn't be exposed to that kind of stuff regardless of what left wing meat heads think in California schools.
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| Posted: 04 Aug 2008 18:59 |
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In my previous post, I made no mention of nationality or preferences. Like you, my concern is primarily acting skill. Let's face it, Captain America is a very very difficult character to play and play well. That HAS to be first priority. The second concern is destroying the character by someone getting politically correct and letting that take over the project. I for one, am glad they seem not to be rushing into things. Let's face it, we are all just speculating. Again, Barrowman's acting just won't cut it for Captain America, and his arrogance is such that I could possibly see an insertion of a "statement" being made. I think we are all in agreement that in spite of the names put forward in the speculation game, that we want the character as he was written and we want the best possible actor to play the role.
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 04 Aug 2008 19:07 |
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In my previous post, I made no mention of nationality or preferences. Like you, my concern is primarily acting skill. Let's face it, Captain America is a very very difficult character to play and play well. That HAS to be first priority. The second concern is destroying the character by someone getting politically correct and letting that take over the project. I for one, am glad they seem not to be rushing into things. Let's face it, we are all just speculating. Again, Barrowman's acting just won't cut it for Captain America, and his arrogance is such that I could possibly see an insertion of a "statement" being made. I think we are all in agreement that in spite of the names put forward in the speculation game, that we want the character as he was written and we want the best possible actor to play the role.
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 05 Aug 2008 23:03 |
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Bucky Barnes- Shia LaBeauf Shia, looks great for Bucky!
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| Posted: 06 Aug 2008 21:14 |
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Well done to jitterypillow for injecting some sense into an increasingly bigoted thread. There is a thing called "acting"...it's where people pretend to be somebody else...like in a film or even a play. The people who see the film or play know that the people they are watching are "acting" (remember, pretending to be other people). Most importantly, everyone watching the film (or even play),KNOWS the "actors" are appearing as other people, and pretending to do things that aren't really happening. The only people who have a right NOT to understand that, are children..and their parents, as part of bringing them up properly , will explain about "acting". The beauty of "acting" is that a str8 man can pretend to be gay, a gay man can pretend to be str8, a Catholic can pretend to be a Methodist...and it doesn't matter because they are all "acting". Now, some people are good "actors", some are bad...and as far as films or plays go, that's all that really matters. So, slam Barrowman for being a bad actor, sure, if that's what you feel, but not for who he is. I would not pick him as a possible Cap because I think they need a name, not because he's gay. And yeah, if you're wondering, I'm gay...and even that fact doesn't make me want to back Barrowman.
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