| Posted: 23 May 2008 21:39 |
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Iron man and Spiderman movies made millions overseas, because IM was a charming alcoholic millionaire who learns to target the badguys than blowing up land and mountains, and Spidey was a teenager who learns about the responsibility of being an adult and having powers.
With Captain America, they might see Cap as an obnoxious, arrogant American who thinks the American way is the right way, ...and I hope that would not be portrayed in this movie. Any thoughts or idea on how not to show Cap this way?
I suggest the Red Skull beat the crap out of Cap, despite that Cap has an enhanced body (there's always someone stronger), and an army of Americans, British and French, comes charging in to rescue Cap.
Iron man was about using tech to fight war, Cap would be using leadership, values and unity to fight war (human spirit and all that stuff).
Both Cap and the Skull are products of their government, portray Cap, with a humble origin (frail youth bouncing from job to job), as the positive and hope for his country and leaders, and the Skull, the terrorist and usurper that is who the Skull is.
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| Posted: 24 May 2008 02:00 |
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Step one, the Skull should not be held up as the example of Germany, he should be held up as the example of the Nazis. This difference needs to be clearly stated in the movie, so that ze Germans don't get all pissy and think that we're drudging up old nastiness.
In a Mark Waid issue of Cap, the Skull basically says in narration that though he was selected by Hitler, he always planned to overtake his position in the Reich. The Skull has always, since the day he was born, wanted to take over the world so he could destroy it. Nazism is just a tool to him. If the movie shows the regular German soldiers nervous about following his orders, even show him disrespecting Hitler and plotting to overthrow him, it will show that America is not fighting Germany, it's fighting evil.
Step two, ever see The Patriot with Mel Gibson? There's a scene near the end where Benjamin Martin needs to decide which is more important; his vengeance for his sons, or winning the battle for the country. He chooses his country, and gets his ass handed to him for it. He is on his knees, about to die, and sees the American soldiers rushing on to victory, and is at peace. Then, of course, he turns things around at the end and kills the bad guy, but you get the idea.
Cap needs to have some epic battle with the Skull, which culminates in him creating a way for American troops to take some important bunker. He watches as his men charge on to victory, then he chases after the Skull and somehow ends up on a rocket to crash into the ice. The movie needs to show that while Cap wins the battle, it is really the soldiers winning the war. Anything less would disrespect the thousands of American, British, and French soldiers who sacrificed their lives to save the world. In this instance, Cap should not do it single-handedly.
They can wait until the Avengers movie for that.
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| Posted: 24 May 2008 03:26 |
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Well put jitterypillow.
I agree.
Now let's do this!
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| Posted: 26 May 2008 03:20 |
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I must say folks, you got the right idea. I would add a small change to "Cap getting on a rocket". The Red Skull is the perfect enemy for Cap but Baron Zemo needs to get involved at the end. That way Cap and Bucky can vanish on that mission. This would keep the ending on the right track for all us diehards.
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| Posted: 26 May 2008 03:43 |
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Yeah, I'm 100% up for Baron Zemo being one of the supporting Villains.
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| Posted: 26 May 2008 11:32 |
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JamesOnly your 200% percent right about keeping Zemo in this. I don't want this movie being a vehicle for an Ulitmates Cap Movie. We already got the Ultimates in the 2 Avengers animated movies.I'd really love to see Eric Roberts play Nick Fury.
I'd like to see Wade Harlin play the Red Skull. I think he would be to this film what Heath Ledger is going to be as the Joker in the Dark Knight film.
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| Posted: 26 May 2008 17:45 |
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I mean, what i think would be interesting is have the Red Skull play a more background role and have Zemo doing most of the fighting before a climax with the Red Skull. It would make the red skull seem alot more powerful. Zemo can die at the end after he kills Bucky, that would rule.
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| Posted: 27 May 2008 14:17 |
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Stay with the story, don't confuse everyone with two badguys, ...there's already Hitler, Nazi soldiers, Nazi superweapons, ...Zemo, Armin Zola, they can be cameos or inside/Geek moments.
Look, Steve Rogers is proud to be an American, loves his country and lives like a patriot. That doesn't mean that he's naive, nor have opposing views and opinions to his government and fellow Americans, and or follows blindly to whatever his superiors tell him. I believe people should be proud of their country, heritage and traditions. In Cap's world, he was given that chance to serve and better his country (Shown through that Operation Rebirth experiment that some might view as steroid use). It's how this might be shown through the movie that might hurt the international market.
In the fourth Indiana Jones movie, newspapers in Russian countries are now bashing that movie for it's cartoony portrayal of communist badguys in America. Hindu people are asking people to boycot that Mike Mayers movie, the Love Guru. Though I feel that all this is just adding to the promotion of their movies, but Cap movie can become a rallying cry for American Imperialism and anti-American sentiments.
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| Posted: 27 May 2008 23:57 |
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Yes, some Russians are getting uppity about the Commies in Indy 4. Yes, some Hindus are upset that apparantly, people are going to think that a white Canadian represents the true Hindu faith (?!?).
In the long run, none of that matters.
People whining about this type of portrayal really doesn't affect box office reciepts, which is the only thing the movie makers are concerned about. The only protests they worry about are Muslim extremists, because they blow people up, which *does* effect box office reciepts. The Russians and the Indians will blow over.
To keep from the anti-American protests that lead to bloodshed, the focus needs to stick with America not necessarily fighting certain countries, and certainly not countries that can't defend themselves, but with fighting *evil*.
And I have two slight problems with having Zemo in the story. First, the idea of having two masterminds vying with each other for overall controll might get too complicated, and leave the viewer feeling cheated. Second, having two villains who wear masks and never take them off (one having been chemically bonded to the respective villain's head) seems like having Mr. Freeze and Captain Cold both going after the hero. It's the same thing twice. If Zemo is in it, he should not have a mask. Leave that to the Skull, because frankly, he rocks it better, and it will market more widely than a purple ski mask.
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| Posted: 28 May 2008 01:42 Last Edited By: JamesOnly |
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I don't think Captain America will cause an uproar. Nobody really disputes America's legitimacy when it comes to WW2, it was the major conflicts that followed that draw all of the controversy. (Korea, Vietnam, Aghanistan, Iraq)
As for Zemo. I really like the character and I think it would be cool from a Cap Fan's perspective. Though, I don't think it would necessarily detract from the Red Skull. He would have to be a supporting villain. Y'know how in action movies you got the main villain and then you got his number two guy? I'd say Zemo could be the number two guy.
Let the convo continue!
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| Posted: 28 May 2008 22:07 |
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Like I said, I'm fine with him being in it, just don't start him stuck in the mask.
Hell, that can be his big finish in battle with Cap! Falling in a vat of chemicals/getting hit with chemicals. Then, when Cap comes to the present in the Avengers, the new Baron Zemo can tell how he wears a mask because of his hideously scarred grandfather (60 years is a bit much for just a father), and a new era of Zemo is brought upon the world!
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| Posted: 30 May 2008 02:04 |
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That would be interesting to throw Baron Helmut Zemo into the future Avengers film. It would be a good way of bridging the two films together. (Captain America and the Avengers)
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| Posted: 12 Jun 2008 20:27 |
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As a Brit, as well as a huge Cap fan, I never had a problem understanding that the name was symbolic of lots of positive/aspirational attributes. The "America" part of Cap's name has always meant the American Dream to me, and has mostly been explored pretty well in the comics. Comics readers who think Cap is all (or even partly) "America, f%#k yeah!", clearly don't know the character, or misunderstand who he is. For a world/non-comics audience, maybe there needs to be some education about who Cap is...much like with Iron Man, who was a largely unknown quantity. Making The First Avenger a WW2 pic, with that international element, would be a sensible move, IMHO, ending with Cap getting frozen. Then use his discovery as a catalyst for the subsequent Avengers movie.
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| Posted: 13 Jun 2008 21:52 |
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Well said!!!!! Captain America is beyond politics, he is not only the symbol of the American dream; he is a man that integrity and honour as a much a part of him as each cell in the man. In his encounter with the Scorpion in the late 60's early 70's, he talks about it not 'being fashionable' to stand for the law and patriotism, which tears at him. He then realises that he cannot shake off that conviction because it is so much a part of him. Perhaps he is the Thomas More of our time although a fictional character!
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 14 Jun 2008 03:18 |
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EXCELSIOR!!!!!!
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| Posted: 14 Jun 2008 04:10 |
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That's great to have a British citizen understand and love the Captain America character. Hopefully the movie will make Cap a hero of freedom, universal freedom and rights. But I don't think the movie should end with Cap being frozen. Cap should go out in a blaze of glory, like end the movie of him charging into battle, no resolution, no kissing the girl, no hints of a next movie, just him going back into combat. Black Hawk down had soldiers going back to battle.
It's not just steroid use and international image that can hinder Cap's success, it's also the "Its been done before" or "Familar" themes.
By 2010, there would be Batman, Dark knight, Hulk, Wolverine, Punisher, Maybe Iron man 2, Thor, Hellboy and other non comic book superheroes like Will Smith's Hancock and the TV show, Heroes. So Cap will be facing that 'Seen it in every super hero movie' sense and the 'Saw enough and enough is enough' sense. The big war, Nazi, Red Skull terrorist image, 1940 era, does help to make Cap different, but it's also that never give up and battle to the end that needs to be expressed. Let this movie introduce Cap and let it end with him charging into battle, make the audience remember Cap this way.
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| Posted: 14 Jun 2008 20:21 Last Edited By: Pole805 |
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They can't destroy Cap's movie! Just because Cap is not popular right now doesn't mean he's bad.
1991 they made the worst Cap movie known, ever since then the popluation of of Cap fans has gone down!!!
Captain America desevers to have good comics and good movies.
My comment stands as a Fact
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| Posted: 15 Jun 2008 01:06 |
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You're saying that at no point in the past 17 years have their been more Captain America fans than before then? Can't agree with you there, pal. Sorry. Heroes Return, post 9/11, the first issue of the Ultimates, his death, the Winter Soldier... plenty of moments in the past 17 years where Cap's popularity has been high.
The part where Cap is unpopular is *outside* the comics world. Anybody who's ever read a Marvel comic knows that even though he's not the most powerful, Captain America can kick just about any ass out there. People who don't read comics, however, hear the name and have no idea who he is.
They'll learn. Iron Man was great. I just finished watching Incredible Hulk, and it was awesome. I can't wait for 2010 and 2011, because it just means more movied about comics characters done JUST the way they should be. Hopefully the Wolverine movie will be great, too.
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| Posted: 15 Jun 2008 05:52 |
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I'm not trying to ruin the Cap movie, it's that Cap getting frozen and popping up in modern times, or references of that, just going to ruin that DANGER element. This is what'll make us care and understand the character. A friend mentioned that in Star Wars, the Phantom menace, there needed more scenes with Liam Neeson's character and Obi Wan, to make us mourn or feel for him when he got killed by that dude with the red face and double bladed lightsabre. They need to make the Red Skull more evil, more devious, and he needs to have an army behind him to make him a foe that'll destroy everybody and everything, and they must show him willing to kill Cap and Cap can die. The Cap movie must show Cap in the best light and best moment, leading his fellow men and freedom fighters to victory. End it frozen in ice?
Want a connection to the modern era, mention a young man whose going to start the Howard Stark industry, a commander with the name Ross, a soldier with the Parker name, or even a medic with the name Blake.
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