| Posted: 29 May 2007 01:14 |
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THIS IS WHY WE NEED CAPTAIN AMERICA!!!!
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| Posted: 29 May 2007 14:42 |
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Many of the children we care for are foreigners who as they get older must return to their countries So you take care of foreign kids? Like a missionairy kind of thing?
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| Posted: 31 May 2007 00:21 |
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Well i would do it. Cause...
well stick what i just said ok
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| Posted: 31 May 2007 05:58 |
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So you take care of foreign kids? Like a missionairy kind of thing?
Yes. We have children from 3rd world and war torn countries who barely know what age they are - and we help them get their education, and care for them before they have to return. Me and the wife have several children of our own, and these kids just file in with them. They love it, and we love having them too.
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| Posted: 31 May 2007 15:19 |
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 Awesome.
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| Posted: 31 May 2007 18:19 |
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Pop music is boring because it no longer represents rebellion in the same sense that Elvis started back into the 50's. MTV is now a politically left propaganda machine instead of a channel dedicated to fun music. Notwithstanding MTV was never something that I as a Christian should really be praising, but right or wrong I did like it back when I was a teenager. Videos were fun like Twisted Sister's "I wanna rock" We're not gonna take it" etc. I stopped watching MTV a long time ago after Beavis and Butthead got canceled, and then I only watched them.
Tim, maybe pop music is just boring to you because you aren't 14 years old anymore. Not to bring the wrath of Dilbert down upon us for daring to discuss music, but Twisted Sister? Those guys made Kiss look like Mozart.
As far as MTV is concerned, you are going to have to show me some evidence of them as a "politically left propaganda machine". If people are going to MTV for the message, no wonder we're stuck in Iraq. I really wish MTV had SOME message, ANY message- but that just isn't the case. I believe the "M" now stands for "Mindless"Television.
As an experiment, turn to MTV when you read this or first thing when you get home today. I can promise you they're either pimping someone's ride, playing a prank on a celebrity or showing reruns of the "Real World". If you can find a message let me know- I'd like to hear about it if they've gotten better (but I doubt it).
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Well, Jesus didn't mention evolution
Yeah, well why would he mention something that doesn't exist? He gave us his version of things in Genesis.
Wait, Jesus wrote Genesis now? Well, he DID often speak in parables- which are in a sense, metaphors.
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My opinion is irrelevant- plenty of smart, well read people see it differently from me.
At this point your opinion is the only thing left we have to discuss on this topic. One of the faults put at the door of liberalism is that liberals never want to tell exactly what it is they believe for fear of rejection. I've plainly said what I believe about creation, now it's your turn. It's not going to hurt you or anyone else for you cough up some details. You can put a disclaimer that this just your personal beliefs. Since you are arguing on the side of evolution I would expect evolution to be interwoven into your explanation of creation. So as Thor might say, "Have at thee"
Hrm.... Well that would take all day. I maintain that what I believe is totally irrelevant, since I'm not trying to have my beliefs taught in school which i guess is what this was all about. What was this all about?
But yeah, I would warn anyone out there against taking my beliefs or anyone else's as some kind of fact or noble truth. Go find out for yourself. Nobody has all the answers.
Soooo... my beliefs. Here's the abbreviated version:
I think that the evidence for God exists in the natural world, not in supernatural acts that I've never witnessed and no one ever tested. I think that the words of Jesus, as well as a few other historical figures of the ancient world have reached us across the divide of time because they are holy or divine- but not supernatural. In other words, they were so correct that people keep returning to them and editing them through interpretation. Over time, this has made them extremely universal. For an example, think of the way that the Bible has been translated into many different languages- by people with little in common. Many things, like the gnostic gospels, have been removed and found later. Other things are constantly interpreted by the times. The 15th century Catholic Church thought Galileo was a heretic because his scientific findings contradicted the Biblical explanation of the universe, but now the Catholic Church allows that evolution could have been God's method of creation, which I think is a fair assessment.
Holiness or divinity is a hard thing to explain as I see it, but I will try. There is much in mankind's future that we do not understand. I believe by looking back at humanity's past, that we are very, very slowly getting better. As we improve our character, we're still chasing an improving ideal as well. To me, this improving ethical ideal is holiness or divinity. It is what is close enough to grasp, but not understand. I think a good example would be "forgiveness". To forgive IS divine, because the individual might not see a benefit to such behavior, especially if it appears a transgression will be repeated again. But mankind does benefit, as forgiveness increases harmony and cooperation- things that are beneficial to furthering our knowledge of God if we're all working together and not fighting. It is hard to build while one is destroying.
Jesus set the bar impossibly high for divinity, but then Jesus saw much farther than the rest of us. There probably isn't an end result to perfecting our behavior as a society, like an increasingly small fraction that never becomes zero. We won't ever become God, or be perfect like God. Instead, there is a journey to get more in tune with God as we understand more about his creation, universe, nature- whatever you want to call it.
With regard to evolution, I think it makes perfect sense as we can and have demonstrated it in a laboratory with organisms like fruit flies. I don't believe in supernatural acts of the past, because I don't see any supernatural acts occurring today. Furthermore, if a supernatural act really happens and isn't just fiction, then it occurred in the natural world and has a science about it, something like "God=Mc2". We would just need to know more about the God side of the equation. My feeling is that science is learning more about the "God factor" everyday and evolution just happens to explain a part of what God did in creation as part of a process set up with the ordering of the universe.
I don't think that the message of Jesus, or the notion of God requires any miracles. Maybe it did, "in hindsight" as ancient peoples had to have some explanation for how their world worked. But today, miracles or supernatural things are unnecessary to prove that there is an order- a justice you might say- to the universe. According to the second law of thermodynamics, complex information naturally breaks down into less ordered information, just as heat from the sun escapes into the cold of space- in an attempt at reaching an equilibrium. So far as we know, Earth is unique in its ability to harness that escaping energy and buck the breaking down of information. Instead, things on earth grow increasingly complex through "life" as it evolves. Now, I don't pretend to have the final verdict on where this is going or if it is set in stone. Science could prove this little theory wrong tomorrow. But my interpretation of this process is that there is something special about life, and especially about life that can take increasing charge of its own destiny. Where it is going, I can't say from our tiny vantage point in this small space, in this small pocket of time we are given. But I think we are building toward something with our increasing understanding of the universe and increasing ability to determine our destiny. Its amazing when you think about it- the things Jesus said when there was no understanding of DNA or entropy could still be what prevents the kind of war or environmental destruction that would halt any further complexity in information by destroying all life. Therefore our mission, as I see it, is to learn as much as possible and live as harmoniously as possible so we can preserve and grow.
That's all for now. Ask me more specific things if you like- as there is more to it. Again, my opinions are congruent with Christianity (maybe not anyone's specific brand) and maybe some other things. But they're a set of beliefs based on actual science. They are not actual science in themselves (science doesn't really say anything about God). Therefore, anyone who disagrees is just taking on a subjective argument, like who is better- the Beatles or the Monkees. (Beatles).
And on that note- I'll be back to discuss your posts soon, Dilbert.
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| Posted: 31 May 2007 19:48 |
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As an experiment, turn to MTV when you read this or first thing when you get home today. I can't watch MTV long enough without getting bored out of my mind, but I will say the biggest propaganda crap they push is gay rights and lifestyle junk. If my memory serves me correctly the company that owns mtv even owns a 24 hour gay network.
What I'd like you to tell me is what you believe happened to create the universe. I believe God spoke into existence like the Bibilical account, but how do you converge the existence of God and evolution into the creation events? Do you believe God ordered a big bang, and then ordered that monkeys evolve into men? If so why would God not have told us in His word that He used evolution instead of the Genesis account which is quite plain. "God said, 'Let their be light, and there was light' etc.
If we can't believe the Genesis account then how can we believe anything in the Bible including what Jesus himself had to say? Subjective ideas don't work for matters like this. Either God created the world or he didn't. Either he told us how He did it, or He didn't. There is no maybes here. It's either or.
I can say the Monkees sing better than the Beatles, but that's an opinion. I can say the Monkees consisted of 4 members during it's TV run, and that would be a fact no one could argue with but give 50 years and if it has any political signifance everyone and his uncle might deny the existence of 4 singing Monkees. Good grief I just made a funny without trying.
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| Posted: 31 May 2007 23:52 |
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sweet you're s good man
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| Posted: 01 Jun 2007 00:54 |
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I can't watch MTV long enough without getting bored out of my mind, but I will say the biggest propaganda crap they push is gay rights and lifestyle junk. If my memory serves me correctly the company that owns mtv even owns a 24 hour gay network.
Ar they commanding people to be gay? Gay people do exist Tim. Just because MTV shows some every now and again doesn't make them a "liberal propaganda machine". Why would MTV even care? Is Dick Cheney's daughter part of the liberal agenda? What side is Cheney on anyway?
But if you want to write a nasty letter to someone over the state of MTV, I will not stop you. I would love to have a music channel again. Godspeed Tim.
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What I'd like you to tell me is what you believe happened to create the universe. I believe God spoke into existence like the Bibilical account, but how do you converge the existence of God and evolution into the creation events? Do you believe God ordered a big bang, and then ordered that monkeys evolve into men? Well, my first and probably more accurate response is to say "I don't know" as I was not there, nor am I God (believe it or not). But if I had to take a stab at the question I'd say that God is part of the natural process and not supernatural. Does that help?
The reason this pops into my head is because of what you said about God "ordering a big bang- monkeys to man...yada, yada". It sounds somewhat dumb to me that God would vocalize things like a magician- which makes it seem silly to me that He would create any of the natural world like a magician or a person- this is God we're talking about. For an example of how illogical this is- in what language did He say "let there be light"?
So to answer your question- I point you to wikipedia- to the laws of thermodynamics. I think what God did, or does, is create the conditions for an ordered universe. From there, things like evolution take their natural course. Now you might say this is akin to Jefferson's "clockwork universe" in which a creator simply got things going and never touched it again. I say that this is incorrect because it only views the natural world from a certain vantage point- linear time, of which we see only a tiny, tiny speck in our lifetimes. I think free will is not evenly distributed among people, and those who see father than others usually have more freedom in their choices and responsibility for making the right ones.
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If we can't believe the Genesis account then how can we believe anything in the Bible including what Jesus himself had to say? I think this is where your head keeps exploding when you talk to me. Here's what I can offer you- don't believe everything someone says, don't believe that you've always interpreted the meaning the only way possible, and don't judge information based on its messenger- judge it on its content.
Besides, I never told you that I didn't believe Genesis- I think it is a great metaphor for when man came out of the woods and started building civilization. Knowledge in exchange for a life of work- makes sense to me!
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Subjective ideas don't work for matters like this. Either God created the world or he didn't. Either he told us how He did it, or He didn't. There is no maybes here. It's either or. Now you're getting to the crux of the argument. ALL religion is a subjective matter. THAT is why we can't teach it in public schools- everyone will guess at something different, and no person can prove anything about God. Like I said, I'm only guessing. I don't pretend to know how the universe was created. I am not God.
I know you have some beliefs- but at some point you have to admit there are things you don't know or can't reconcile. That is okay Tim, you aren't God. Indian people will see it differently than you and their religion is older. That is perfectly okay. It doesn't mean they are more correct than you are. It doesn't mean you are more correct than them. We're all just guessing based on evidence we've gotten since birth. People that tell you they know all the answers aren't shooting you straight. At best- they're telling you what they HOPE is the answer. But that doesn't mean God isn't real, it just means you're going to have to do your own work on how to get there. I sincerely wish you good luck in that.
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| Posted: 01 Jun 2007 15:28 |
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Ar they commanding people to be gay? No just telling teenagers it's cool, man. It's ok, and anybody who says different is mean, nasty, and old fashioned. Basically that's the short version of what they are saying.
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It sounds somewhat dumb to me that God would vocalize things like a magician Ahh, but you forget how much power is in the very Words of God, and how much emphasis he puts on His Word. Something reflected many times in the Bible.
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ALL religion is a subjective matter. I can say without a doubt that all scripture is not subjective. How can interpret, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" any differently?
Or "God said, "Let there be light and there was light"? How? Please tell me how it could possibly be interpreted any differently?
I seem to gather that you vehemently believe in evolution, but don't really understand the actual workings of this theory you are so willing to defend for hours on end. Please elaborate on the order of events that began the origin of the universe, and beginnings of man according to your belief in evolution. Tis time to get down to it because you know what they say, the devil is in the details.
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| Posted: 01 Jun 2007 18:14 |
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No just telling teenagers it's cool, man. It's ok, and anybody who says different is mean, nasty, and old fashioned. Basically that's the short version of what they are saying. Haha! Anybody who starts playing for the other team because they think "its cool" has bigger problems than MTV can cause or solve. I guess MTV brainwashed me cuz I don't really care what gay people do- same as I don't care what straight people do as long as all involved are consenting adults. Besides, does TV always flatter gay people? I LOATHED that Will and Grace show that it seems every female I know wanted to watch 24-7, not because the characters were gay, but because it wasn't funny. Same for that guy and girl (I think the guy is gay, I could be wrong) who sneak up on people and tell them their clothes suck. Those two should be locked up. I can't remember any gay people on MTV... wait other than that pop metal band from the 80's that wore women's makeup- who were they?...OH YEAH- TWISTED SISTER!
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Ahh, but you forget how much power is in the very Words of God, and how much emphasis he puts on His Word. Something reflected many times in the Bible. Well, I hesitated to type that- because I have no idea about what God might say while he's creating. I tend to literally, bite my tounge when I'm painting or drawing- so I guess saying "BAM!" when you design the universe is no less weird. But my feeling is that these things were just written into the Bible to describe the indescribable in 1st century terms. Who knows? My feeling is just that God would do things more like a deity and less like a person, but I really don't know.
I'm going to post this and go looking for my earlier response to this post. I had one that did a better job of answering your questions on my views/opinions/guesses regarding how the universe started+ a few books to check out on the matter.
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| Posted: 01 Jun 2007 18:17 |
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Okay found it. Here's my first (and probably better) response:
Tim, I'm thinking even this dead horse can't take any more of a beating. Let me say as sort of a catch all for your comments that I just don't take the Bible literally, you do- and it is fine that we differ on the matter. Okay? I mean right here- this is IT:
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D: "ALL religion is a subjective matter."
T: "I can say without a doubt that all scripture is not subjective."
I don't think those opinions are going to change- so we're done. Cool? Awesome. Moving on...
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I seem to gather that you vehemently believe in evolution, but don't really understand the actual workings of this theory you are so willing to defend for hours on end. Please elaborate on the order of events that began the origin of the universe, and beginnings of man according to your belief in evolution. Tis time to get down to it because you know what they say, the devil is in the details. What do you want to know? One reason I don't describe it in detail is because they write BOOKS on this subject, not Captain America.us postings (though we should probably sell a paperback collected version of these arguments- some people will buy anything). Of all the books I've read on matters such as these, Carl Sagan's "Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors" probably does the best job of explaining a point of view that is very, very close to my own. Another would be Paul Davies' "The Fifth Miracle".
Just because I don't elaborate on every facet of evolution doesn't mean I misunderstand it. However, if you see anything I'm getting wrong- please help me out and show me where I'm mistaken. Then cite your source and I'll look into it when there is time. i am certainly better versed in politics than I am in science and religion- but I've got earn a living you know. God is great, but he doesn't pay the rent.
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| Posted: 01 Jun 2007 23:02 |
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AAAAHHHHHHHH
TOOO MANY WORDS AAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| Posted: 01 Jun 2007 23:59 |
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AAAAHHHHHHHH
TOOO MANY WORDS AAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Haha, you may be on to something Pole.
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| Posted: 02 Jun 2007 02:54 |
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Really, COOL! that cheered me up! i've a bad day so THANKS
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| Posted: 02 Jun 2007 15:22 |
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OH YEAH- TWISTED SISTER! Ha ha right, those guys dressed wierd, but gay they weren't. Now Queen maybe another story.
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Haha, you may be on to something Pole. I think he maybe on something period.
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One reason I don't describe it in detail is because they write BOOKS on this subject
You sure it's not because you are afraid of going through that whole thing again about nothing coming from nothing again. You see I believe your evolutionist scientist don't want to put God into the equation at all which means you are back to square one. How does anything exist if there is nothing here first to create it beyond our known observable reality? If the world started from a bang from gases, where did the gases come from? Sure that's where you like to come in and say well God is up there orchestrating things, but you know that statment might well infuriate a lot of evolutionist. If God is still the only possible way that the universe begins as far as our knowledge then why throw out the Genesis account. No proof you say? Well there's no proof gases can just appear from nowhere either, or that God orchestrated evolution. All these matters became a matter of faith.
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| Posted: 02 Jun 2007 18:23 |
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Right but evolution and the big bang are very separate matters. Evolution can be observed right now, in a high school lab. We performed experiments with fruit flies. With regard to the Big Bang, the universe is expanding- spreading out you might say- which is also verified by observation and experiment. The red shift phenomenon (wikipedia that) is still visible as galaxies move away from each other.
Now these two do come together to form a general version of history that is accepted by most educated people around the world, and certainly by the scientific community.
You're attempting to say that it is flawed because it can't explain everything or be an infinite history. That is not a valid argument, because that is the point of science- to keep looking for something that explains more. Science is by no means at odds with God. It really can't ever answer the God question- so even when scientists like Richard Dawkins point out that the universe could exist without a God, that doesn't mean that he knows. That isn't science any more than my belief that there is a God or something that amounts to God, behind all this.
Religion is different- it either tends to put God in wherever there's a gap in logic- as you seem to think I am doing, or it starts with a preconceived notion and won't abandon it no matter what is demonstrated to be the reality.
I can understand your frustration with the big bang theory, because it doesn't give you all the answers. That is a hard thing for any human being to accept. We want to know where we came from. But religion doesn't give you any better of an answer. In fact, it replaces observable events with a group of people that tell you to stop asking questions. At the end of the day, one still gets told to shut up in Sunday school if one asks what you're asking me now.
For example: "What made God?" God. "Okay, so what made God before he made God? How did God make himself?" Because he's God. New topic. "What did God make himself from? What existed before God made himself?" Um... He's magic. Read the Bible. Stop asking that stuff. Next question!
The only honest answer is... we don't know.
At least with science, you know you're getting your info from folks who ask tough questions and form tough conclusions based on what they actually find. They invite you to do your own research and consider you helpful if you figure out where they are wrong about something. You won't find that anywhere else. Plenty of people have been proven wrong and though egos become bruised, were still happy to get a step closer to the truth. This recently happened to Stephen Hawking. It didn't make him tell people they were going to hell because they didn't believe in Hawkingism.
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You sure it's not because you are afraid of going through that whole thing again about nothing coming from nothing again.
To answer your question, I am quite sure that I'm not as good at explaining these concepts to you as a physics or biology professor would be. They've spent their lives studying and writing about this stuff. I've heard it, I've read it and it makes sense to me- but few people are going to put it as elegantly as Carl Sagan or Paul Davies. I encourage you to pick up their books.
Now, if you want to know about "real politik" as described by Bismarck, there I might be able to help you out.
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You see I believe your evolutionist scientist don't want to put God into the equation at all which means you are back to square one. No- it just means that they are not ignoring things they can observe, but so far- can't observe anything beyond the big bang, so they speculate upon what might have happened. That's another point of science that differs from religion: it is okay to say you don't know in science.
Not that you can't guess- which is really what we all are doing, yourself included. My guess, like yours, is that there is a God. I try to support that with science, but really can't. You try to support it with religion but really can't. There are atheists who attempt to support their guess that there isn't a God with science and they really can't.
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All these matters became a matter of faith. With regard to God, yes- that is correct. With regard to science, that is the point- science is only what we can observe, or what can be proven false. Science isn't faith, and it might tell you how things just are or how God might have done them- but it won't ever tell you if there is a God or not. Understand?
I leave you with a quote by Carl Sagan, a brilliant man whose book "Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors" you really should order. Carl explained it better than me.
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"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."
Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP Keynote Address
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| Posted: 02 Jun 2007 23:32 |
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For example: "What made God?" God. "Okay, so what made God before he made God? How did God make himself?" Because he's God. New topic. "What did God make himself from? What existed before God made himself?" Um... He's magic. Read the Bible. Stop asking that stuff. Next question!
According the the Bible God always has existed. We can't comprehend God otherwise He wouldn't be God. All we see, hear, taste, and smell are sensations given to us by God. Just think about all that goes on between your eyes picking up light, and transferring that to your brain in the forms of images. God is not magic, He's simply beyond the earthly senses He has created us with. You have to remember something. I know you think that because God doesn't make everything clear or speak to us today in audible voice that makes the Bible phony or puts question on God's very existence, but remember the purpose for which God created us for originally. The purpose being to worship Him. From that perspective it makes sense He wouldn't give us all knowledge or that He might require things like faith on our parts. If we knew everything or had everything would we look to God? You see just in our modern times how people tend to only look to God when times get hard...when there is a disaster or money is scarce. The more we have the less we turn to the Almighty. Personally, I think if you have spiritual questions that you have to read the Bible, and listen to others and if what they say jives with the Bible then you know you are on the right track. It's true sometimes you ask some old guy something in church that's hard, and they freeze, but that's just being human. Doesn't mean there isn't some answer available even if it doesn't completely answer the question to our satisfaction. What makes creation work, and Christianity in general is the one substance that wrecks havoc with evolution...faith. You got to have it, or everything falls apart like a deck of cards. There's no reason the Bible and science can't get along, but for my money the Bible is the ultimate authority. Sometimes folks just don't use common sense with the Bible and science especially in the old days, and they give fuel to your fire.
One of these days we are all going to meet God one way or the other, whether in good or bad circumstances, and then I think it will be pretty clear as to how the universe got here then.
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| Posted: 03 Jun 2007 21:20 |
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ugh
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