| Posted: 08 Aug 2008 02:40 Last Edited By: Crossbones |
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1. A great story does not make it Captain America; Miller did not need to kill off an old Batman to make it a great story, either. Even if Superman thought he was.
2. A girlfriend/female is not necesarily a good judge of male oriented entertainment - using another genre as an example: women love Bon Jovi, few go to an Iron Maiden concert on their own volition.
3. The first 20 books of the current series are my favorite CA books since Waid/Garney.
4. Obvious killing off of characters to bring them back to life appears to be a fairly common modern trick, like multiple covers, to sell books to speculators. Wanna bet on the issue of a press release by Marvel regarding the death of CA during or before the book's release?
5. Brubaker being an excellent author isn't the question to me, it is whether Marvel is really going to bring back Captain America, or are they trying to get the new readership to swallow a CA substitute. A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down.
6. At least, when it wasn't Thor in the book, Marvel called it "Tales of Asgard", though they kept the same numbering.
7. I'm hoping I'm very wrong about CA coming back, but after almost 40 years of CA reading/collecting, I'm having a sinking feeling.
8. Steve Rogers was a "Square Deal" Teddy Roosevelt Republican. Why? Teddy started life with poor physical condition, then using methods outside himself, became a great warrior and leader without forgetting where he came from.
I'm hoping Steve does come back; like Joe Simon said (think Joe voted for FDR?) America needs him more than ever.
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| Posted: 08 Aug 2008 15:14 |
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Crossbones,
I fully agree a great story does not make it Captain America. I think (hope)Quesada and Co will realise that quality writing will keep the readership; no need to kill off Steve Rogers. The fact that Captain America has been such a staple with a committed audience is something I hope they recognise at Marvel and will act accordingly. I can only wait and see.
True readers who have been readers for 40+ years are their core readership. I don't think any of them believe you can just insert another character and call him Captain America. That is not what the comic is about.
For me, Steve Rogers is the only true Captain America!
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 08 Aug 2008 15:30 Last Edited By: Nomad |
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Oh, well … it's a great ride, but if it rubs some wrong, that's their loss.
1. Miller never wrote Batman as an ongoing. And All-Star doesn't count.
2. Comics are written for both genders. And the book certainly isn't very feminine. That's plain silly.
3. The post-death issues have been great, too.
4. Characters dying and coming back is an OLD trope. If you have been collecting for 40 years, you'd be well aware of that. I've only been reading comics for 30 years, but I know that.
5. They are going to keep Bucky running around with the shield for awhile, then they will bring back Steve down the line. It's a long-form medium.
6. The story is called "Captain America" because it is about Captain America. Steve Rogers and Bucky's journey to the title's namesake.
7. He'll be back. There's a movie coming out in 2011, and it will be Steve Rogers: The book will reflect that.
8. And the Super Soldier project was pure New Deal. You can twist it whatever way you want, but Steve Rogers spent his formative years growing up during the Great Depression and the project that transformed him into Cap was under FDR's watch. Nothing against Teddy, but he was an inspiration to the man, at most.
And Simon's right: America needs Cap more than ever, that's why it's entertaining. The stakes are higher than ever and our greatest defender is down and out.
Again, it's a great ride. Sorry you're not on it.
__________________Captain America is an FDR Democrat.
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| Posted: 08 Aug 2008 18:32 |
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Hiya Nomad!
I fully agree that comics are for both genders. I am a woman and proud to say I have been reading Captain America since the mid 60's.
I'll stay out of the debate of which Roosevelt and party that Captain America is a part of ! You and Crossbones can decide if it's Teddy or FDR!
The storyline is well written, there is absolutely no denying that. It just goes to prove that comics aren't for the kiddies anymore!
You and Simon are both so right! We need Captain America more than ever now. That kind of integrity isn't appreciated very much now it seems, and we do so need it.
One of the great things about this site is some great ideas and debates go around, and even if there are disagreements, it is 99% respectful disagreements.
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 08 Aug 2008 19:07 |
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Back at ya, Est.
Favorite comic these days …
__________________Captain America is an FDR Democrat.
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| Posted: 18 Oct 2008 03:00 |
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I really think Cap transcends party politics, he's about America's ideal culture - both parties, supposedly, pursue those foundational values. That's why he's an enduring character and why they need to bring Steve back particularly - our best memories of his generation at war embodied those ideals, even if the country didn't or doesn't.
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| Posted: 25 Oct 2008 00:04 Last Edited By: Crossbones |
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Sorry, I went AWOL;
It's now issue 43, I'm still Steve-less and "captain america" is some Russian Manchurian Candidate. The movie appears to be WWII. Anything linked to Steve as a comic recently is done as a retro-story and not current, or some story to help suggest passing the torch. I love good stories, but Captain America is Steve Rodgers. Everything else is wanna-be. Great, we get to relive the 90's where staple characters get death or near-death experiences. Stories of Loki, Odin and Asgard do not make it Thor. Stories of Steve make it Captain America. Thanks to you-all for sharing.
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| Posted: 25 Oct 2008 03:30 |
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Barry Allen Flash came back alive.
Bucky came back alive, and he supposedly died in 1945.
In the Punisher comics, I'm hearing that Ma Gnucci, the head of a Mob family whose arms and legs were torn off by polar bears, and who the Punisher kicked into a burning building, ...is being ressurrected. That book even ressurected the Russian, who the Punisher had chopped off his head.
Does anyone believe Cap/Steve Rogers will remain dead forever? Bucky was dead from 1964, Avengers no. 4, to 2006. I'm just wondering if Marvel is going to keep Rogers 'dead' longer than Bucky.
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| Posted: 25 Oct 2008 18:37 |
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Your point is well-taken, although the Flash for many recent years was Wally West, the original Kid Flash. And Superman was killed, just to bring him back, with the speculators going wild. Some characters, I guess, I can accept with a rotating stock of individuals under the mask, maybe because their characters are based more on their "powers" than their psychological drive to become a character (Green Lanterns.) For myself, some "Heroes" are much more than their costumes and good stories. Both Batman and Captain America came out of situations were their whole being was focused like a laser beam to address issues inside and outside themselves; the psychology of Bruce Wayne and Steve Rogers ultimately being more important to defining who Batman and Captain America are. And I think it has become very hard in this day and age to write Steve Rogers as Captain America because of many reasons; one I would suggest comes from citizens of our own country not feeling like the U.S. is a place to be proud of and that we should be more like countries that do not believe in individual rights, and believe centralized groups are much more important than the individual. I don't really want to go off on a political tangent, yet Captain America is a political symbol, a symbol of U.S. individual freedoms versus the government facism of Hitler, Mousolini and Stalin. Deep down, I can't help feeling that the death of Steve Rogers is a form of symbolism, and Bucky: a Russian style Manchurian Candidate. BESIDES, I'll be dead if someone waits another 40 years to bring back Steve.
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| Posted: 27 Oct 2008 02:45 |
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Crossbones,
Your point is well taken. I believe that is hard to write about Steve Rogers as Captain America because most of the writers and especialy Marvel as a whole do not believe in Captain America. Think abou it for a sec, since the 70's Marvel does not know what to do with this symbol. Since they do not believe in Anerica, they cannot make this symbol, Cap, (Steve) do or stand for anything. These folks believe "America bad" "All other Nations, Good". If this was a DC character he would be treated at least as Good as Superman, and be as dominate (in sales) as Batman. But nooooo! Marvel hates what he could stand for and therefore does not use in a positive light i.e. to stand for the best of America.
As much as I like the story line and the fantastic art work(all artists), the best story of Cap in the last twenty years is Marvel killing him off! There bottom line is, of course, money but enough is enough its been 18 months! Marvel should bring him back but again Captain America, symbol of America "Bad"
Actually Marvel must be loving it, they kill off this great American icon that they will not use properly and then have his friends and replacement try and live up to the idea Cap represented but Marvel will never let him achieve.
Believe me, I have been reading Cap over 40 years and they do not have a clue on how to use him. Joe Simon is right, when he say's, that they should give Cap back to him and the Kirby Family, so the that this true American symbol can be, as mentioned, use to represent our Country's great ideas and inspire us to a greater good.
Anyway, just a little food for thought (my rants and ravings)
tata
jedge
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| Posted: 27 Oct 2008 04:00 |
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Hi Jedge!
I think you are right in several points. Marvel cannot cope with what Captain America stands for, and therefore don't truly know what to do with him.
I also think it is a fab idea to give him back to Simon and the Kirby family!
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 28 Oct 2008 03:21 |
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Wow!
What intense thoughts! And giving Captain America back to the creators' families: talk about redressing the wrong done to Simon and Kirby that has existed since not long after publication of CA began in the 40's. Plus the vista of stories that could be told, especially when you view that CA and Bucky were NOT part of the Avengers for their first 20 plus years. Rambo has shown that patriotic warriors can still be respected in this day and age; plus that out-right evil still exists to fight, and can be dealt with interestingly and honorably, as long as political correctness does not bog it down. Heck, when I first heard that First Blood's author was going to write for CA, I was hoping it might go more in a heroic warrior direction for Steve. But it looks like it became majorly compromised. I still hold out hope that the real Captain America will find his way back in print, by someone who deeply cares for what Steve should represent, then can follow through & express it in an interesting way. Conan leaving Marvel sure has not hurt. And the Conan purist have mostly lauded it. If anyone hasn't followed the link on the homepage of this site to the Captain America Encyclopedia, I highly recommend it. Even in the beginning, the political effects of CA weren't always appreciated, but I guess Timely had more balls then.
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| Posted: 28 Oct 2008 18:37 |
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There is somebody or somebodies in Marvel that rather get it. That scene between Captain America and Spiderman in #537 (I think) during the Civil War line. Let the character and the book carry on as it should and the politically correct be damned! If it doesn't fit someone's PC sensibilities, then they don't need to buy the book (no one is forcing them). The fact that there is such an active base out there, and a long lasting one (40+ years), proves the book will hold its own in its own integrity.
Not only that, but only a good book will generate the continous, well thought out, intelligent criticism that the book inspires.
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 28 Oct 2008 21:28 |
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Here Here! I was just about to write that. I mean, that scene is on the front page of this very site. I know I've taken that scene to heart as perhaps the best characterization of Cap as there has been in my lifetime (22 years). I wrote 200 pages on superheroes for my senior honors thesis at Cal, and couldn't come close to what Cap said in those few pages as far as what our heroes mean to us. And that sucker got an A. I went out and bought that TPB just so I could read that scene over and over again.
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| Posted: 29 Oct 2008 04:28 Last Edited By: Crossbones |
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You-all give me hope, and I've not given up hope and I continue to wait; plus I come to this m-board when I can. But, then I find myself fighting this demon that says if most readers are swayed "to the dark side," the changing persona under the CA mask will become the norm. Captain America will become just another vaneer character and will change on the whim of the writer. I don't want a shallow character. Another hero I had grown to love during the 90's, (which had historical ties to Marvel) went through an evil revamping that I find eerily similar, in that, the character was trashed just so it could be mined for sales ( in this case video games.) Namely X-O Manowar. Then Bob Layton felt the need to utterly smoke the character in the final book because he was so disgusted with the editorial staff. I want to fight to keep Steve as he should be, but I don't even begin to know how to stoke the fires of the right Marvel writer who knows how to handle Steve the right way and I'm miffed over all the people buying into "the king's new clothes." Grumble, grumble, grumble. It's like J Jonah Jamison is real, has taken over Marvel and mistakes CA as Spiderman.
And like you-all, I'm re-reading the good-stuff to keep the spirit alive and well.
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| Posted: 29 Oct 2008 15:14 |
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Cap can't go back to Simon and the Kirby family. All comic characters that lasted 40 years survived because new writers and artists keep reinventing and reworking the characters. If Cap gone back to Simon and Kirby, they'll just hand him over to other creators to update and rework Cap to the current audience. That's what Marvel is doing with Cap and it's in the Marvel universe that Cap is excelling and finding new fans and readers. Fighting America and Archie's the Shield hasn't really caught on or developed a fan base, patriotic hero, fighting for duty, honor, country, ... Gijoe is a hit because of the team, the multitude and variety of characters, and a great villian (Cobra). Conan has a loyal fan base, a couple of movies and a tv show that helps sustain him in other comic companies.
Cap works because he's in the Marvel universe. When you look at all Marvel characters, they all seem to be varied, off-on-many directions and motives, Iron man's a business man, Thor's a doctor, Spidey's a teenager with school problems, Fantastic Four is a family of explorers and brainiacs, Xmen are mutants in a segrated minority community, ...and Cap is a leader and a moral compass for heroes and people who want to do good. If he's in the DC universe, he'll be competing with Superman, out-fighting Batman, showing that he's a true American than Wonder woman and stealing whatever attention that the Flash and Green Lantern already had.
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| Posted: 29 Oct 2008 16:41 |
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We all as devoted Captain America readers have to keep putting our twopence worth in. If we go silent and don't give INTELLIGENT feedback (I capitalise it, because there are enough of the juvenile fans to give the intelligent ones a bad name), the editors will never get that they have a winner and winning product with Steve Rogers' character.
Look at it this way, Captain America and Steve Rogers never gave up!
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 29 Oct 2008 19:00 |
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The problem is that comic companies are very insular. Like I've said before, I've studied comics on a pretty high level, and I'm a writer with a pretty good handle on most of the mythos, particularly of Cap. But Marvel likes to keep writers in-house. They don't go out and solicit new writers with fresh and deep-seated ideas for dearly beloved characters. To be a bit crass, it's like in-breeding. Sure, you start out with two normal people, but if you have just them and their descendants stay within the same gene pool, you end up getting genetic mutations. Point being, that the longer you stay in-house instead of searching for outside talent, the more stale the ideas become.
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| Posted: 30 Oct 2008 00:16 |
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*******SPOILERS********
*******SPOILERS********
*******SPOILERS********
*******SPOILERS********
If any of you truly thought that Ol' Captain America WAS NOT dead I suggest you pick up a copy of Thor #11. The spirit of the Star Spangled Avenger makes a short cameo, so go pick up a copy if you want to hear some of the last words of Cap before he returns to what ever afterlife he came from.
*******SPOILERS********
*******SPOILERS********
*******SPOILERS********
*******SPOILERS********
__________________"--When the mob and the Press and the whole WORLD tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth and tell the whole world 'No you move'."
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| Posted: 30 Oct 2008 01:01 |
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I just read it. Freaking spectacular. I got chills. It gives me hope that at least the "spirit" of Cap is out there somewhere, and if anyone ever watched the Casper movie with Christina Ricci, we all know that ghosts have "unfinished business." Gives Marvel an out for reintroducing ole Stevie when his movie comes out. But I'd rather have him in the role of guiding spirit for Buck. Just a possibility.
Also, the words the Phantom Cap speaks are truly inspiring and very prescient, given the current political climate. I think we have a contender for Inspirational Moment. Absolutely beautiful.
Also, the Ultimate Cap Annual really has a lot of 616 Cap in it. This version of Rogers sounds a lot more like the moral guiding light that we all know and love than the more conservative Ultimate version he's supposed to be. Maybe Marvel finally got some Ultimate right other than Spidey?
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| Posted: 30 Oct 2008 05:12 |
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To my esteemed colleague: Captain America was 66 years old when he was murdered by Marvel, not 40. Conan is 76 years old this December, not 40 years old. Superman and Batman ~70 and 69 years old, respectively, not 40 years old. Editors and owners, and not necessarily in that order, set the direction for their books, not writers. Otherwise, why have editors? Conan is more popular than ever because the current editors/owner realized they needed to go back to the source of Conan, the Robert E. Howard stories and not the pastiches, in order to take his fame forward, then they hired writers/artists who could work their magic to "make it happen." The most popular Marvel Conan's were those where Roy Thomas stayed close to the source material. Interestingly, Joe Simon was the editor at the time Captain America was birthed. Kirby helped create the world of Marvel in the 60's. Even the recent Batman movie is "noir" like the pre-Robin stories of Bob Kane, not the 60's camp of 40 years ago.I also find it interesting that the WWII morality that Millar wrote for CA in The Ultimates would be construed as consertive, especially in light of one other board member suggesting CA is a FDR Democrat, PLUS that Millar is publically known for his liberalism.
And "spirits" have a tendancy to diffuse like dry ice in Death Valley. I was never a big fan of the Spectre, anyway. Give me some blood, guts and the ability to think on your feet, anchored with a moral code, not moral relativety.
PS - I hate incestial inbreeding also.
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| Posted: 30 Oct 2008 15:31 Last Edited By: Shieldbearer |
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Liberalism had a different meaning back in the 40s than what it is today. Back then even the liberals were extremely conservative if you would place one up against a liberal of today.
In those days you couldn't find a liberal who would lift a finger publicly for abortion, same sex marriage, or wealth redistribution. 10 - 20 years later if a liberal would shout some of today's policies he would be hailed as a communist without a second thought. So I say quit trying to bicker about what political affiliation Captain America is. He will not side with one side or the other because he represents something greater, the country itself who is not its president, but rather its people.
Cap tries to teach us time and time again that Politics are superficial and detract from what this country truly is, a country of freedom and equality. Political differences only divide and weaken our country and leave it vulnerable to exploitation.
A country is not its policies and its people do not always believe in the policies enforced, despite what many other countries believe. Its these stereotypes that he tries to avoid as they detract from the realities Americans take for granted every single day.
__________________"--When the mob and the Press and the whole WORLD tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth and tell the whole world 'No you move'."
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| Posted: 30 Oct 2008 17:53 |
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And that very essence is why Captain America is as valid and taken to heart today as in its beginnings. It is AMERICA and its ideals of its founding fathers that he defends, because in doing so, he automatically defends the rights of man!
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 31 Oct 2008 02:21 |
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So...ummm...I don't know if this has been mentioned yet....
But has anyone noticed the groundwork laid for Captain America's return lately in both Captain America and other comics recently?
I'm not saying this is the case, but here's what's I've noticed over the last few months.
If you don't want to see why and how Captain America Comes Back, don't bother reading past this point.
*****************************************
O.k. Ready?
Let's start with Cap's body being returned ot the arctic. This is important. Prior to this, his body was shown in the morgue reverted to his pre soldier status.
Not too much to worry about there of course, bodies of dead heros often return to their "natural" state in comic books upon death, so what's the big deal?
Then comes the return of Steve Rogers II, seemingly from Death, with the reference by Dr. Faustus that yes his theory was correct that while in suspended animation, The Super Soldier Serum healed his considerable wounds (after seemingly being burned to death) while in suspended animation.
Finnally comes the piece I'm sure most people missed.
Again if you don't want the bread crumbs ruined, read no further.
***************************************************
In Marvel Apes, Capatain America has been replaced by Baron Blood, and has turned the rest of the Invaders into vampires as well.
Gibbon realizing that Cap might have been tossed into the same frozen north atlantic waters by the Baron plays a hunch and goes to the arctic circle, and there is Cap frozen in a block of ice as we all remembered.
He's thawed out, healed (after a dramatic loss of blood, the same cause of death after a bullett wound) and returned to health.
Now you might say that proves nothing, a bullet wound isn't the same as a vampire attack, but a special point was made of having Wolverine explain that people who fall into the arctic don't go into suspended animation, they die. Which leaves Bruce Banner to theorize that perhaps when the body receives enough damage the serum puts the person into a hibernative state to allow the body to repair itself.
Sure it's not a lot, but it's enough clear clues, that makes on think that this was intentional.
Any thoughts?
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| Posted: 31 Oct 2008 02:37 |
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Not to change the subject...
But wasn't the current Editor and Chief of MARVEL that wild and crazy guy who was the mastermind behind butchering Batman and trying to replace him with AZRAEL?
Legacy anyone?
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
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| Posted: 31 Oct 2008 23:34 |
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I think its safe to say there is no proof of a return of Captain America. Enjoy Bucky wearing the red, white, and blue for years to come or at least until the First Avenger: Captain America movie comes out.
Think about it, they didn't put Spider-man "Back in Black" just for the hell of it. They used it for promotional purposes of the Spider-man 3 (which was a flop as far as I was concerned).
Everyone just enjoy what Brubaker has been giving us. We all know that one day he will be back, just be patient for a few years.
__________________"--When the mob and the Press and the whole WORLD tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth and tell the whole world 'No you move'."
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| Posted: 02 Nov 2008 02:30 |
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I picked up Thor #11 yesterday. Fitting reading a story that visits the Other Side on Halloween! I agree. I think that could be a hint on a return although I don't know the timing. Since Steve Rogers' spirit has not truly crossed over, who's to say that his physical body is still on this side and holding his spirit?
Interesting also in Thor #11, the news debates of different groups claiming Captain America for their own purposes.
I keep going back to the funeral. I have seen several state/presidential funerals with the riderless horse with the empty boots in the stirrups. I have never seen any with a white horse, only black. In Captain America's funeral the horse was white. Maybe it was an artist/writer's gaffe; maybe not.
Also, in the present book, interesting in that the book goes back to 1942 with both Captain America and Bucky? They are not sinking Steve Rogers completely.
Estsantlehi
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| Posted: 02 Nov 2008 19:50 |
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An aditional clue on The Captain America is comming back front, in Thor #11.
It's made relativly clear in the conversation that Where ever Captain is it is not his spirit's final destination, and his description, cold, dark, like the bottom of the ocean, pretty much describs where his body physically is at the moment.
I'm not saying they are brining cap back next year in the way they did Reed Richards or Superman, but I do think they are setting the table so that if they decide to do this at some point they will be able to.
As someone pointed out, when the movie comes out they will probably bring cap back to the books (or perhaps just start a new WWII line) if they put Bucky in the film, and perhaps even the winter soldier (in a very evil triumphs final scene) then they have an entire other line they can push as well.
Even more interesting is the disalusioned cap from the 1950's, I wonder if he might take up Jack Monroe's (and Steve's) costume as Nomad to carry on someother work. It would be nice if somehow he doesn't fall into the Nazi mold, even with his utter madness, but just seeks to understand what his country has become. He did seem, at least under Faustus' controll, to be far less insane then he appeared as either the racist 1950's Cap, or as the grand Director.
For that mater I wonder what Protocide is up to (speaking of other super soldiers) or if a sample of Jim Hammond's blood (from Invaders/Avengers) will be used to restore (in the way it did warrior woman) Elisah Bradley's mind and allow him to return to super heroing.
Seems as always, there is a pretty crowded plate of people out there with as yet untied stories. It would be interesting to see any of them come back to regular activity.
Any thoughts?
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| Posted: 03 Nov 2008 20:04 |
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I wonder, given the fact the movie is 'scheduled' to come out in 2011, that maybe they will time it with the 10th anniversary of 9/11?
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 04 Nov 2008 00:26 |
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Probably not. Waaaaaay too much political undertone. Also, this is a summer blockbustery-type movie. A Sept. release won't bring in much $$. July 4 is probably the ideal release date/weekend.
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