| Posted: 04 Nov 2008 03:53 |
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WOW,
Good stuff to think about. (1)The 50s Cap getting a mini-series on some of his 1950 adventures. (2)Protocide looking-up the 50's Cap and they have an adventure or two. (3)One or both of these two "joining-up" with the "unofficial" Avengers.
Way to much fun to think about
I hope they do not wait 2-3 years to bring Steve back. When they do, I do hope Bucky will stick around and become a permanent part of the book.
A minor final thought, I thought when Cap Bucky met Young Bucky he would say more and be more convincing to his younger self to jump off that "bombed plane. Alas, we know from history that he does not listen because he his lost in that mission. But again what if (no pun) Bucky did listen! Then Marvel gets to remake some parts of its history (think Spiderman, one more day, )
tatta
Jedge
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| Posted: 04 Nov 2008 03:57 |
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As I said in another post, Cap won't be back til his movie. The reason for his return may be something like the Super Soldier Serum refuses to let Cap's body die. He did survive a suspended animation since WW2 so they will probably take this route.
Quite possibly the cold of the arctic water allowed for his body to heal under these conditions unlike a thawed version which would allow for degeneration.
Steve's return to the Arctic may allow for this process to start over again and the return of Steve Rogers is upon us right about 2011. Marvel will not keep their icon dead for too long, but will refuse to revive him early to avoid pissing off fanboys (ala Superman Doomsday back in the 90s).
This I believe creates a problem, if all Cap needs to to be deep frozen to resurrect himself he may become sort of an immortal soldier akin to a vampire without all the bloodsucking given enough time to regenerate. This could also give some interesting plot devices such as memory loss again or a new reaction to the reawakening like fire vulnerability (if cold heats him then why shouldn't heat be his bane and create a true death for our Super Soldier).
__________________"--When the mob and the Press and the whole WORLD tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth and tell the whole world 'No you move'."
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| Posted: 05 Nov 2008 03:22 |
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Well...as far as the imortality of Cap goes, I believe during the last Cosmic Cube story, when was it Korvac? traveled to the future to destroy humanity Steve was shown living a couple hundred years between attacks, with no real dimunition in his physical prowess.
Likewise, going back to Elijah Bradley, although mentally he has decayed, he is shown to still be as perfect a physical specimen as he was in the 40's with out the benefit of suspended animation.
Hmmm.....which also brings up the notion of MVP, who is being kept on Ice at camp Hammond, and although he did not receive the super soldier serum he is a natural super soldier...thanks to the perfect diet and exercise.
All sorts of possibilities out there. Heck this most recent death of Jack Monroe was what his third or fourth? And I don't recall ever seeing his body either.
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| Posted: 05 Nov 2008 16:03 Last Edited By: Pole805 |
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He did take the Super Soldier Serum.
He was chosen to take the serum, as a super weapon for all life on the U.S.
After Cap was destroyed, frozen in a block of ice, Red Skull thought he won.
In the Ultimates they do not include the Red Skull because they want it more realistic, Red Skull died.
Stan Lee's:
After Cap was unfrozen, he soons finds out that Bucky is dead. He was chosen to lead the Avegers, with a Nick Fury as a white.
Ultimates: Nick Fury finds Cap's body by searching the Pacific. Nick Fury is leader of controls.
Lee's: Cosmic Cube is a powerful thing, that can capture any motion or strength. Skull trys to Use it on Cap. Using in shield in WWII
Ultimates: Caps gets a new shield, made out of the Aliens.
And after all that work, Marvel blows off Cap.
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| Posted: 05 Nov 2008 19:26 |
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Question to ponder: Where will the scripting go with the new administration coming in? After all, he won't salute the flag with hand on heart, disdains to wear a flag pin, and has a wife who has not been proud of her country until now.
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 10 Nov 2008 04:50 |
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3 years from now - a long time. Movies have known to die on the vine in less time. 3 more years of Bucky pretending to be Cap. Technically, in print, Steve has not been inactive, just shunted to stories of the past or side stories reflecting his "spirit", whether the Morrell mini-series, Thor 11 or the continuity books & etc. A movie with Steve in WWII does not mean to me that Steve will be brought back in the continuity books, unless there is a major retcon of what Steve is. Marvel has had a hard time defining Cap in their books for many years, Jack Kirby, Stan Lee, Steranko, Waid and Garney excluded. Actually, since Bucky comes out of WWII also, and is younger than Steve, plus is the current Cap-wanna-be: the movie can have Steve and still be a vehicle to reinforce Bucky as the "continuity-Cap." No contradictions there. I keep hoping I'm wrong, but pretty soon, Bucky will have been the longest running main character in Brubaker's CA books: longer than Steve, if not technically already. And hope can string along many victims. Isn't that how all hostage for ransom stories end?
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| Posted: 10 Nov 2008 12:32 |
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Hostage for ransom stories do Not all end that way.
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| Posted: 12 Nov 2008 00:14 |
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Only in the movies!
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| Posted: 12 Nov 2008 00:23 |
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Anyone know what happened to the Star-spangled site? Haven't been able to link to it in a while.
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| Posted: 09 Dec 2008 14:56 |
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This shows how power a imaginary symbol can be! Before i read Civil War, i knew nothing about it. Then i was watching CNN, and they said the man of America has finally fallen. So i was very interested about who they were talking about. Then they show the bloody wounds of Cap, which was a big hit that i missed such an epic loss! It just goes to show you that a person that people believe in (yes we know he is not real!) can affect things
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| Posted: 09 Dec 2008 18:43 |
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Yes I agree, Captain America was or is a fictional character but he is also a symbol of what our country was going through at the time of his creation. He is an ideal which represents all that is good about this country and what we as a nation of individuals can strive for and achieve, all we need do is to try. Sometimes I think these past years are as dark and maybe even darker in some respects than they were in the 1940's when we easily knew who the enemy was.The thing the people of our nation or any nation need to remember is that it is the people who make up a country and that those who are elected to office are simply servants of the people ... or at least they are supposed to be. We will get through any war, hard times or any other type of problems that may come, as long as we pull together as a people united in our just cause.
This is what Captain America symbolizes for all people and all nations.
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| Posted: 11 Dec 2008 17:22 |
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He is a symbol of carrying on and maintaining your integrity no matter what. It sometimes seems that honesty, honour, integrity, and principle are things that can be disposed of because it is inconvenient. Here is a symbol of someone that these principles are more important than that and keeping that kind of faith no matter what.
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 12 Mar 2009 04:29 |
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I haven't posted or even been by in a while. Just drooped by. Cap was important to me growing up, a role model along with certain other ideal models. People today have lost the understanding that there can be an "ideal". "No one REALLY lives like that." That's why I believe the "people who owned the character" came to a point they didn't know how to write Cap. To "us" Cap was (and still is) much more than a character. To them, he was a point of business, a number on a spread sheet. If you don't believe in (read refuse to believe in)actual good and evil but see everything in gray, a character that stands for character, personal responsibility, "willing self sacrafice" (rather than government forced), using strength for right instead of for gain (and actually believing in right and wrong) is just beyond you.
They killed Cap because they couldn't unserstand who he was created to be. Over the years there had been attempts to pound Cap into PC molds and it just didn't fit (remember the "easy rider" period?). Cap would have been kind and tolerant because it was part of him, not because he followed some list...but the writers, and management people (including Lee) have become standard drones (just my openion). I would like to see Cap back, but sort of dispair in it.. Then again I'm close to 60 so maybe I'm just, expendable.
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| Posted: 12 Mar 2009 15:26 |
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I think Cap writers should study the founding fathers more and pattern his thinking based on their logic.
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| Posted: 12 Mar 2009 15:57 |
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You know Tim, the founding Fathers were a mixed bag of folks, Certainly you'd like him to have the wit of Franklin, the Brilliance of Washington, the Compassion of Adams, and the Creativity of Jefferson.
But you might also get the drunkeness of franklin, the inhumanity of washington, the harshness of adams, and the morals of jefferson.
I think Cap pulls from the moral ideals of the declaration of Independence, that all men are created equal. But going beyond that nicety is likely a difficult road.
It should be noted that the central theme of the Declaration was that the Government was not doing enough with regard to the lives of their citizenry. Which gets us into a whole other debate about the proper role of government in personal affairs.
The founding fathers couldn't agree on that question either, and trying to imagine a single ideal from them is likely going to require either ignoring their statements, or going mad trying to justify them.
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| Posted: 12 Mar 2009 18:31 |
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The Inhumanity of Washington was a tough one, I am mostly refering to his obliviousness with regard to slaves and slavery. Jefferson could be said to have the same, inhumanity, but well, I needed something for Washington, and he's one that's tough to find an ethical flaw. However, thinking back one could point to his temper, which was as I recall legendarily volitle.
Regardless, The original writings of any of the fathers run a across a wide swath across ideologies. Slavery is the key issue of the day that there was titanic disagreement on. But even through religion and its place in american society there was quite a bit of debate.
I'm not saying the founding fathers didn't have good ideas, but as Franklin said, they also had their own ignorances and prejudices.
With regard to Cap. You have a basic problem, First he's an idealist. Second he lives in nonideal times.
Slavery is the easy question and I think we can all agree Cap if he had been alive in 1880's would have been against Slavery. But would have been an abolitionist? Would he ride with John Brown?
After Slavery, does he support reparations, occupation of the South? Does he oppose poll taxes or literacy tests?
You bring him into the modern age, and the world is even more difficult.
Your problem is Cap is an idealist. That goes beyond party but not beyond politics. If you are an idealist you have an opinion on most everything, because it either coincides or doesn't coincide with your ideals.
So to bring just about the hotest topic on the board, Cap would have an opinion on Gay Rights (marriage, adoption, etc.). I'm not saying what that opinion is, but he's going to have an opinion.
You can't get answers to questions like that by studying the founding fathers, because any scholar will tell you what they think the founding fathers would have thought, and none of them can give you the correct answer.
Beyond the nicety of all men being created equal, what you do with the world of men after their creation is a whole other ball of wax.
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| Posted: 12 Mar 2009 19:36 |
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So, everyone's trashing Washington/USA over slavery, ...anyone ever studied Easter Island and how South America kidnapped hundreds of their people and made them slaves in SA? How about Africa, and some of their tribes sold their people to slavery. England, Australia, Carribean Islands, heck, even Canada had an underground slave trades.
I advise people to fully study the history of slaves, learn that it's not just America that was guilty or head of the African slave industry. And note; history is ugly and a lot of things recorded is unpleasent, but we need to learn and ensure that we don't make the same mistakes.
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| Posted: 12 Mar 2009 19:54 |
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Without going back and studying all there is to know about Washington and Slavery, my first gut instinct is that Washington had slaves because of the time he was in. Perhaps, if he just woke up one day and said you know having slaves is wrong. This goes against everything I believe in. What would he do at that point? If he would have let his slaves go, how would they have been treated elsewhere? Would they have starved to death unable to find employment? Would someone cruel have kidnapped them and easily forced them into slavery where they would be whipped and beaten.
There's always talk of gray shades of right and wrong, but seems folks don't always want to give our founding fathers the benefit of the doubt.
Yes, Cap would be opinionated. Probably an expert on history beyond that of today's average person. My own opinion is that he would be something of a Ronald Reagan. Believing first and foremost in the individual not some socialist collective conscience we have today. A belief in raising the level of individual liberty and getting individuals to achieve greatness on their own apart from government intervention. That's the direction I would take. I mean can you imagine Captain America going up to a poor inner city kid and saying, "Son if the government would have done it's job, you could have been somebody." No way. He'd say, Son, you can be whatever you want to be in this great country. Don't let anybody tell you any different. Work hard, never give up and keep moving forward." Then he might refer back to some great American leader of the past.
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| Posted: 12 Mar 2009 21:34 |
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Well the short story on Washington was, like many Southerns felt it was terrible business, but did little if anything to rectify the situation even in their own homes.
Part of that might have been because Washington's slaves were actually Martha's Slaves, and as property a great portion of their wealth was tied up in their owning of Slaves. But I don't think that's much of an excuse for the father of our country to keep his slaves in the National Residence.
My original statement about inhumanity stemmed from Washingtons surprise when his favorite and most loyal slave, a chef named Hercules ran away for Canada one day.
Washington could not conceive that this man he owned would leave the good life he had as the lord of Washington's kitchen, for what ever awaited a free penniless black man in Canada.
That is his inhumanity, that he could concieve of the institution of owning another human as benevolant.
As to the sins of other nations, they aren't in evidence. Captain America doesn't represent any other nation on the globe, so other nations sins are not something he needs to account for. Would we imagine a Captain Germany who didn't aknowledge the horrors of the Holocaust?
There is nothign wrong with understanding the failings of our nation. It is an institution of men, and is as flawed as all institutions of that sort must be.
Cap certainly believes in the individual, but part of believeing in the indivual is that the state must be there to protect the invidual from the mob. So, I could see Cap recognizing Regan as a great man, and agreeing with Regan that the individual must be protected from the powers of the state. But I don't think Cap believes the State has no purpose in the protection of the individual from those dangers (say unscrupulous businessmen, or mobs of the self righteous) who would exploit the individual because of his powerlessness.
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| Posted: 12 Mar 2009 22:44 |
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Here's the thing a patriot believes in his country. If his government doesn't act in accordance to his beliefs he fights to change those policies, but if some foreigner attacks his country in word or deed he will be the first to jump up and fight for his country's honor. I don't think Cap would say take the attacks of a Red Skull or Doctor Doom on our country lightly without giving them what for. I don't even think he take a hippy war protest lightly. He'd support their right to protest, but I think he would strongly disagree with them, and if asked he'd most definitely give his opinion alongside theirs.
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| Posted: 14 Mar 2009 02:08 |
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Recheck Captain America #114 I believe it is. In that book, he fights the Scorpion. In the first portion of the book, he is feeling very out of place. Remember this is the late 60's-early 70's. At one point he says, "It's not cool to defend the establishment" (near verbatim), but then he comes to the realisation and says, "but I've never lived according to fads" (again near verbatim). This says he follows the road of ethics and conscience, even if it's not the fad of the day. Captain America transcends that. Perhaps it's that timelessness of right/wrong, ethics, honour that has given life to his character for 60 years.
Estsanatlehi
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| Posted: 14 Mar 2009 20:57 |
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Good example.
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| Posted: 15 Mar 2009 22:50 |
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I can not think of any other symbolic figure in at least my own lifetime, that inspired young men to want to serve their country despite the popularist movement in the media to embrace multiculturalism and "thinking globally" than Steve Rogers.
I understand his death and his daemons (watching his friends from over the years age and die while he stayed virtually untouched by age...) and I wish only that Cap now rest in the peace he so deserves. There will be others that will carry the shield, if not the mantle, but there was and always will be only one...
When the time is right, the hero that the world needs will rise and lead, perhaps Steve's child in the future?
I have felt as much grief from the loss as I have over the loss of friends and family, which may seem strange to others.
Steve taught me to think of others first.
Steve taught me that freedom is NOT free, and protecting the rights of those you do not agree with is the most important thing you can do.
Steve taught me to walk into a bad situation unafraid.
Steve taught me that often, forgiving yourself is often the hardest thing you will ever have to do.
God Bless you all.
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