| Posted: 21 Feb 2007 18:05 |
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 2016
Join Date: Jul 2006
|
I've been listening to this broadcast today.
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Jay_Sekulow_Live/
Military chaplans are having to fight for the right to pray in Jesus name. It's a shame the military fights for our freedom, and they can't even pray the way they want to.
__________________
|
| Posted: 21 Feb 2007 21:44 |
|
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 2016
Join Date: Jul 2006
|
test
__________________
|
| Posted: 12 Mar 2007 07:28 |
|
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 6
Join Date: Mar 2007
|
Whoever said there are no Atheists in Foxholes was sadly mistaken. There are Atheists, Christians, Muslims, Jews, NeoPagan, and probably some backwards idiots who worship William Shatner in there.
You know, this isn't simply an political correctness thing. It goes beyond to simply "How can we respect everyone's right to religion." Obviously, we can't just have somebody speaking for one religion. It's insulting and offensive. But we can't deny religious services either.
But we can't simply ship a holy man from every different religion overseas for our soldiers, can we?
From what I understand about this situation, though, it's just overhyped stupidity. Nobody is forcing anyone to go to any services. Nobody who doesn't want to be prayed for should be. So, I'm trying to figure out completely what the problem is. Is it just that both sides are unreasonable?
Easiest thing to do would be to simply forget about religious services for military personal. While I respect that right, it's just not logical in this day and age.
|
| Posted: 12 Mar 2007 15:02 Last Edited By: Tim |
|
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 2016
Join Date: Jul 2006
|
I'm not following this super close, but here's the deal as far as I know. Chaplans are being ordered to not end their prayer in Jesus' name as if that is offensive.
I'm not sure if that is for anywhere he prays or what, but it's simply a matter of a violating the chaplans freedom of religion and free speech. After all that's what these guys are dying for.
Individual liberty is being replaced with political correctness. In other words if it's offensive to somebody, political correctness says stop it, but liberty asks does the person have the right to do x, y, or z and does that act take away the liberty of someone else before asking that an act cease.
Offending someone is not taking away their liberty.
Quote:
Easiest thing to do would be to simply forget about religious services for military personal. While I respect that right, it's just not logical in this day and age. I disagree. I sure as heck wouldn't want to fight a war without having a preacher there to give me a spiritual boost. War isn't logical anyway by it's nature. It's kill or be killed so how many service men are really sitting around worried about being offended by someone else's expression of their religion. I think they have bigger issues on their mind, and having a little faith in God might be all they have to keep them going.
Just my opinion, but like I said a man shouldn't die for freedom in a God forsaken country and not had the chance to have a man of God pray with him first.
__________________
|
| Posted: 16 Mar 2007 00:23 |
|
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 264
Join Date: Jul 2006
|
Yeah, but I think Christian Marines have got each other for that "spiritual boost" or far more important: last confession or comfort.
I'm not arguing for military chaplains being removed, that isn't something I mind, though I can see how it could theoretically be a problem. I opt out of this one- some other non conservative can have this argument. This is kind of like crosses on the highway- not legal per se, but doesn't bother me.
But I will say that the guy who will need a chaplain the most will be the religious minority. If I were about to die in a war, I'm sure I could find a Catholic hanging around somewhere and I'd prob be surrounded by spiritually independent, freethinking deserters of nearly every organized denomination of Christianity but who still believe in the words of Jesus (which I would prob prefer, given the choice). I'd be covered, twice.
But for a Muslim American soldier, where's the nearest Muslim to pray with him? Prob best we don't answer that...
Switching gears, where's the chaplain for the Shatner worshiper?
They have rights too, but honestly I can't imagine the high priest of Star Trek being too comforting:
"He's dead, Jim."
|
| Posted: 16 Mar 2007 15:54 |
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 99
Join Date: Mar 2007
|
|
I'm in the military and I want a chaplan there if I need him. They (almost the whole world) are always trying to take Jesus out of everything so our younger generations wont find out who he is!!! They don't like it when the hear the truth from the Lord.
|
| Posted: 16 Mar 2007 18:45 |
|
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 2016
Join Date: Jul 2006
|
Yep, glad to hear from you on this, and I'm sure you as a Military person are a firm believer in individual liberty. It's a shame that there is even a need for a debate here. I mean all we are talking about is letting Chaplins say Jesus name at the end of their prayers. Their prayers. Not forcing it upon someone that doesn't want to say Jesus' name. Our founders provided for freedom of speech not freedom from hearing. This is something that should be a problem in a communist or extremist radical muslim country not America!
__________________
|
| Posted: 17 Mar 2007 00:00 |
|
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 99
Join Date: Mar 2007
|
|
I agree with you 100% no one is forcing them to say it but if you want to hear it like I would then there is nothing wrong with Jesus name.
|
| Posted: 19 Mar 2007 07:32 |
|
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 10
Join Date: Mar 2007
|
Okay guys I can see both sides of this one. However, seeing it here on this site is the first I have heard of this. However, my guess is that eleminating Jesus is a compromise the military is making. We have to keep in mind that the chaplins are in a unique situation. Just like Jag officers, and Military doctors they are a limited pool of specialized officer who have a special task to fullfill. However they are what the military has. So by forcing them to not end with in the name of Jesus Christ the military makes their services more open to all faiths. I understand where you guys are coming from though. However, on the chaplins right to free speech I am not sure that really applies here. After all we have to keep in mind that they are still Officers of the United States Military. Yes they are fighting for our rights, however when they sighned up to do so they also volentarily gave up certain of their rights. In fact their rights to freedom of speech is one of the rights of wich they not on par with private citizens. Especially the officers. They can not for instance critize the President or other officers and certain civilian leadership. That is in fact a courtmartialable offense.
On the other hand I do agree that possiably this is a difficult situation. After all the military has the post of chaplian and when they agree to take a chaplian they know he comes from a certain denomination. I bet you guys also wouldn't want them forcing a Rabbi chaplian to be forced to include Jesus in his sermons either. However, my guess is that the decision was made that by eleminating that phrase that is sigular to the Christian faith it makes the sermons more acceptable to Jewish and Muslim service men and women. My guess is they are trying to limit or mitgate growing complaints about the chaplian services.
After all there would be an argument that the Chaplian service violates the establishment clause of the Constitution. While my feeling is that the Supreme Court would support the Chaplian service based on it's long history and tradition in U.S. History just as they do with Chaplian to Congress and invoking the name of God in Court rooms the military makes it much easier when they don't allow the chaplians to emphasize christianity. Still I'd be interested to see what the military requires in way of creditals to serve as a chaplian.
After all how would you guys feel about a Buddist or Taowist monk or priest being the chaplian for a group of service men. One whose faith is eastern orgin and does not even have the similarities or shared history that Jeudisiam or Muslim faith shares with christianity? Like I said I see both sides of the issue however, I think the powers that be are trying to strike a compromise that lets everyone save some face. As the saying goes a good compromise has everyone walking away angry.
|
| Posted: 19 Mar 2007 16:05 |
|
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 2016
Join Date: Jul 2006
|
|
Quote:
it makes the sermons more acceptable to Jewish and Muslim service men and women. My guess is they are trying to limit or mitgate growing complaints about the chaplian services. Actually believe it or not I heard that Muslims (the non radical extremist American types) were on the Christians side on this one. Nobody wants to open the door to having their religious freedoms limited.
Quote:
After all how would you guys feel about a Buddist or Taowist monk or priest being the chaplian for a group of service men. I think chaplans are available for most religions, but even if they weren't I'm not sure why that should mean a chaplan has to restrict his use of the Lord's name. Think about it what good is a Christian chaplan if he can't even pray to his own God.
Quote:
As the saying goes a good compromise has everyone walking away angry. Sorry I don't see that as a compromise. A compromise would be for those who don't want to hear Jesus' name to go into another room or something. Let's be clear here we are talking about censoring someone's name here. God's name yes, but still a name. It's not like they are commanding those under them to bow before Jesus. This is another backwards upside down attack on Christianity. Make no mistake about it. There is no legitimate reason here. These people aren't trying to work with Christians. It's their way or the highway. Compromise isn't in their vocabulary. The ultimate goal of atheistic groups responsible for these type of problems is the elmination of Christianity from every front they can.
__________________
|
| Posted: 19 Mar 2007 21:50 |
|
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 99
Join Date: Mar 2007
|
|
Which is what is wrong with our country when we cut out the lords name!!! I dont care about other religions keep them in your own country, we will all pay one day mark my words maybe not today,next day or next month or year America will pay and so will our military if we as Soilders dont say stuff to them wait till i see my Chaplin Im going to ask him what's up..
|
| Posted: 19 Mar 2007 23:08 |
|
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 2016
Join Date: Jul 2006
|
Ask your Chaplan exactly when and where they are asking him to not say Jesus' name. Try to get as many facts for us as possible.
__________________
|
| Posted: 20 Mar 2007 03:59 |
|
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 264
Join Date: Jul 2006
|
Kidcomando,
Thanks for an even handed and practical response. No matter where people end up on this one- this case is not without its complexities.
All the same, I don't want to go near it. I need a vacation.
Perhaps the best way to explore this weird beef would be an "A-team meets MASH" style tv show about a team of chaplains from wildly different faiths attempting to do their job in a war zone while being kicked like political footballs by blow hards on all sides. I should get to work on a pilot script instead of all this debating...
|
| Posted: 20 Mar 2007 21:48 |
|
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 2016
Join Date: Jul 2006
|
Telling a chaplan he can't pray in Jesus' name is like telling a doctor he can't use medicine.
__________________
|
| Posted: 21 Mar 2007 02:29 |
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 33
Join Date: Mar 2007
|
|
I was discharged in '75 at that time if a man wanted to be prayed for by the Chaplin but was not a Christian (say he was Jewish) the Chaplin while possibly a Christian himself would council and pray with the man while not trying to force the beliefs on the man. There is right now simply a rash of "let's shut the Christians up". we just need to hold on to our beliefs, and make sure that while we don't let our own beliefs be taken away we defend others to, if they'll let us.
|
| Posted: 22 Mar 2007 00:34 |
|
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 99
Join Date: Mar 2007
|
|
Quote:
Telling a chaplan he can't pray in Jesus' name is like telling a doctor he can't use medicine Ill ask him Tim but I wont see him till the 2nd week of April unfortunetly because I'm curious as well...
|
| Posted: 22 Mar 2007 23:58 |
|
|
|
Registered User
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 99
Join Date: Mar 2007
|
|
Quote:
Ask your Chaplan exactly when and where they are asking him to not say Jesus' name. Try to get as many facts for us as possible oops I quoted thw rong one I'll ask Him In April, Tim becuase I won't see him till then!!
|
| Posted: 23 Mar 2007 01:07 |
|
|
|
Administrator
Currently Offline
|
Posts: 2016
Join Date: Jul 2006
|
__________________
|
|
|
